Anomaly reports

[Richard_H]

Mortars in all their guises . . .

Class 5 – Mortars

Argentina 506 has Size 0, all others have 1.

Chad 61 has Speed 5, the standard for 60mm mortars is 3.

Uruguay 106 has Speed 0, standard for 107mm mortars is 1.

Poland 510, Nigeria 69, Sudan 80 & 82 and Uruguay 105 have Speed 3, standard for 81/82mm mortar sections is 2.

Switzerland 174, 175, 721 & 729 are the only units with a Vision figure (10).

Libya 84 & 85 have RoF 7, standard for 107mm mortars is 6.

NVA 72-74, Pakistan 84, Greece 137-139, Turkey 117 & 118, Hungary 510-513, Romania 70, 75 & 76, Libya 80-83 and Ethiopia 82 & 87 have RoF 8, standard for 81/82mm mortars is 7.


Class 152 – Heavy Mortars

France 429 – should this be classed as a Heavy Mortar?

105mm Mortars – Denmark 104 has Crew 12, others have 8.

107mm Mortars – Pakistan 80 & Indonesia 66 have Weight 2, others have 1.
India 83 has Crew 10, others have 8.
Cyprus 77 has Speed 2, others have 1.
Greece 141 & 142, Turkey 120 & 121 and Ethiopia 84 have RoF 7, others have 6.

120mm Mortar – PLO 74 & 75 have RoF 7, Libya 87 has 6, others have 5.
S.Yemen 87 has Weight 1, others have 2.
Argentina 63, Brazil 63 & 64 and Chile 63 have 25 Weapon 1 rounds, Uruguay 107 has 30, Italy 111 & 112 have 50, others have 40.

120mm Mortars – Greece 143 has RoF 7, USA 86, NVA 76, Turkey 123 & 124, Hungary 515-518, Libya 86 & Ethiopia 86 have 6, Romania 78-80 have 4, others have 5.
Sudan 88 has Weight 3, others have 2.
Jordan 87 has Crew 8, Turkey 123 & 124 have 10, others have 12.
Romania 79 has Speed 0, others have 1.
France 413 and Sudan 86-89 have 30 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 40.

160mm Mortar – Czech 520 & 521 and Hungary 520 have Size 2, others have 1.
PLO 77 & Ecuador 63 have Weight 2, Albania 64 has 4, others have 3.
NVA 79, Czech 520 & 521, Hungary 520 & Libya 88 have RoF 4, others have 3.
PLO 77 has 20 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 24.

160mm Mortars – Romania 335 has Size 3, Crew 8, Weight 0 & RoF 4, others have 1/16/3/3
Yugoslavia 310-312 have 20 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 24..

240mm Mortar – Libya 89 has Size 1, Crew 12 & Weight 3, others have 4/10/4.
Russia 438 has RoF 2, others have 3.
Hungary 524 has 15 Weapon 1 rounds, others have 20.

Richard H

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Richard_H

Back live. SP Mortars to start with:-

Class 38 – SP Mortars

Switzerland 626 & 770 (Bison) are in this class, but they appear as fortifications. The following units (2 Bison) are Class 156 (Off-Map Heavy Artillery). They have Speed 0, so they aren’t SP-ing anywhere in a hurry. Typo?

Switzerland 760-765 are also Speed 0, and are called ‘Moerser Festung’, or Mortar Fortress. If the oob designer wanted to distinguish them from vanilla bunkers, they could be changed to Class 152.

Richard H

I would appreciate the advice more if the "adviser" understood the game better. These units were added in this way as an acceptable compromise because they are special bunkers and therefore need armour ratings. UC 152 is an infantry class and therefore does not accept armour ratings and this is why all of those units are stationary "SP" mortars because they need to work as mortars and they need armour and that class covers that critera and was not being used.

Also, given they have the range to operate off map they are available for that use as off map arty and none of them are "SP" at all that's just the best class available to use and we all knew they weren't "SP-ing anywhere" when Peter added them to the Swiss OOB but thought, given the names of the units and Icons used that would have been obvious.

Originally Posted by Richard_H

France 429 – should this be classed as a Heavy Mortar?

It saves using up four slots using class Mortar(Sub Type B) just to make an 81mm mortar unit UC 152 for four years to cover the Legion Spt Pl that it was intended to cover. The "error" was sometime in the past somebody pushed the start date for all French Hvy mortars back to 1946.



Don

[Richard_H]

Don

I have never set myself up as an 'advisor', these were merely thoughts about an oob which I suspect even you will admit is somewhat out of the ordinary. It is nothing to do with my understanding of the game, indeed I would be surprised if many people realised what the situation was until you explained it.

Let me put it clearly: I don't have to do this exercise, but thought it might be of assistance, as Andy also suggested. However, your attitude does not put me in the frame of mind to continue to try and save you a considerable amount of hard work.

Richard H

[DRG]

In the nearly 14 years I have been doing this I have found , in most cases ( there are exceptions ) the correctors rarely like being corrected back. If you feel qualified to offer page after page after page of "Anomaly reports" then expect to be corrected from time to time when it's obvious you don't have experience in OOB design. If you did you wouldn't suggest an infantry unit class should be given armour ratings. It would seem it's OK to tell us we are in error but not the other way round because that's "attitude". Would it help if I sprinkled more of these around ??

Everything in that post was an explanation of why it was done the way it was done and I only bothered to comment, so perhaps it doesn't happen again, because those two points caught my eye when I was cutting and pasting the info to our "to-check" list .

If you choose to continue your project and make incorrect assumptions expect to be corrected again . If you consider that "attitude" then so be it.


Don

[Suhiir]

Don't take Don personally.
I have a permanent imprint of his teeth in my arse

[DRG]

Right next to the USMC tattoo ......

[Richard_H]

@ Suhiir

Thanks for the reality check!

@ Don

I expect corrections, indeed I welcome them, because it improves my knowledge and understanding. However, there are ways and ways of going about them, and to say that I do not understand OOB design merely because I misread a couple of units in a reworked oob is both unfair and unwarranted. You may recall that you were happy enough to take on board my amendments to the Dutch oob in WW2 a few years back . . . . I've actually been at this almost as long as you - are you saying you never get caught out? We all do from time to time, it's called being human. But let's get this straight - not all of what you said was an explanation, some of it was a personal attack. Which, thanks to Suhiir, I shall ignore.

More to follow, but it will not be "advice", merely information.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

More mortars.

Class 153 – Light Mortar

Nigeria 64 is not within the time-frame of the country, not used by any of the ‘official’ scenarios, and is a 81mm weapon.

60mm Mortar – Sudan 586 has Weight 1, all others have 0.
Thailand 573 has RoF 9, others have 8.

2 60mm Mortars – NVA 68-71 have Speed 5, all others have 3. 1 extra for stealth, concealment etc maybe, but I wouldn’t have thought 2?
Denmark 92-94 have Crew 7, others have 6.
NVA 68-71, Greece 134-136, Turkey 115 and Brazil 529-531 have RoF 9, others have 8.
Argentina 565 & Brazil 529-531 have 45 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 60.

3 60mm Mortars – Ethiopia 85 has RoF 9, all others have 8.


Class 173 – Para Mortar Team

Belgium 527 is the only unit in-class with a Fire Control rating.

N.Korea 598 & 599, and Belgium 527, 542 & 543 are Size 0, all others are 1.

China 405 & 407 have Speed 3. Standard speed for a 107mm mortar (the nearest equivalent) is 1. Maybe 2 because they’re paras?

India 545 & 546 don’t actually possess a mortar.

Up to 60mm – N.Korea 598 & 599, and Switzerland 366 have Speed 3; Yugoslavia 293 has 4; France 344 & 381, Yugoslavia 289-292 and Croatia 293 have 5; all others (the vast majority) have 6.
French, N.Korean & Swiss units have RoF 8, all others have 9.
Belgium 542 & 543 have Crew 5, standard is either 3 or 4.
India 542-544 have Crew 10, but they appear to have a somewhat different function to standard para mortar teams.

81mm – Switzerland 367, Indonesia 571-573 and Rhodesia 98 have Speed 2; USA 516 and Italy 415-417 have 3; S.Africa 215-217 have 4; Portugal 217 & 218 have 5, and Ethiopia 438 & 457 have 6.
USA 516 and S.Africa 215-217 have a ‘man over’, ie Crews of 9.
S.African units have RoF 9; Ethiopian, Indonesian & Portuguese units have RoF 8, standard is 7.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 200 – Mortar Subtype A

Poland 206 (and 204 in the next class) appear to be the only mortars in existence with an AP round. I have no information on the M98, it just looks out of place, especially with nothing to improve its accuracy.

50-60mm – N.Korea 597, Canada 270-273 and Cambodia 596-598 have Size 0, all others have 1.
Canada 270-273 have 2 Crew, Nicaragua 510 has 4, Denmark 95-97 have 7, standard is 3. France 407 & 408 have 3 Crew for 2 mortars, standard is 6. However, the Canadian units also have only 30 Weapon 1 rounds (standard is 60), hence maybe the size and crew.
Israel 535 has Speed 6, for a 52mm, standard is 4.
China 99, 100, 102 & 103 have Speed 5 for a 60mm, standard is 3.
ARVN 520, Greece 340-342, Turkey 400, Brazil 558-560, Thailand 561 & Ethiopia 79 have RoF 9, all others have 8.
Brazil 558-560 have 45 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 60.

81/82mm – ARVN 524, Belgium 459, Czech 510-513 and Libya 235-238 have RoF 8, standard is 7.
USMC 272 & Argentina 505 have Size 0, others have 1.
Italy 800 has 4 Crew for 2 mortars, Jordan 574 & 575 have 6, Belgium 459 has 7, standard is 8. USMC 270 & 271 have Crew 8 for 1 mortar, standard is 4.
Nigeria 592, Kenya 412, Sudan 251 & 252 and Uruguay 460 have Speed 3, standard is 2. However, they also only carry 40 Weapon 1 rounds, so this may be a trade-off.
PLO 65 has Speed 1, China 101 has 3, but no trade-off.
Sudan 253, Bulgaria 474-477 and Somalia 64 have Weight 1, Sweden 424 has 3, standard is 0 (even for multiple mortars).
Brazil 561-563, Chile 580 & 581 and Sudan 253 have 35 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, Australia 309-312, NVA 188, Green 453 & Rhodesia 140 have 40, standard is 50. NB also applies to Weapon 2 for Australian units.

107mm – Uruguay 461 has Speed 0, Peru 587 has 2, all others have 1.
Ecuador 547 & Nicaragua 513 have Weight 0, all others have 1.
Libya 239 has RoF 7, all others have 6.
Uruguay 461 has 35 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, Chile 582 has 30, all others have 40.

120mm – Russia 563 & 566 have Crew 12, standard is 6. PLO 66 has Crew 8 for 2 mortars, standard is 12.
Egypt 512 & Russia 815 have Crew 5 and Weight 1, all others have 6/2. The Russian unit has a different weapon (2B18) which would account for the crew difference, but AFAIK it is considerably heavier than the M1943.
Russia 815 & NVA 189 have 30 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, all others have 40.

240mm – Syria 78 has 15 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, standard is 20.


Class 201 – Mortar subtype B

Poland 204 – see previous class.

50-60mm – Lebanon 571 is Size 0, standard is 1.
Brazil 567-569 and Ethiopia 290 have RoF 9, standard is 8.
Brazil 567-569 have 45 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 60.

81/82mm – Argentina 616 is Size 0, standard is 1.
Jordan 577 & 578 and Lebanon 573 have Crew 3, standard is 4.
Finland 679-683 have Weight 1, standard is 0.
Belgium 558 & 560, Greece 344-346, Turkey 402 & 403, and Ethiopia 291 & 292 have RoF 8, standard is 7.

107mm – Belgium 559 & 561 and Ethiopia 293 have RoF 7, standard is 6.
Cyprus 295 has Speed 2, standard is 1.

120mm – Algeria 495 & 496 have Weight 1, Sudan 261 has 3, standard is 2.
Ethiopia 294 has RoF 6, standard is 5.
Sudan 259-262 have 30 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 40.

160mm – Egypt 80 has 20 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 24.

240mm – Egypt 81 has 15 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 20.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 202 – Mortar subtype C

81/82mm – Poland 188 & 189 have Speed 3, standard is 2.
Ethiopia 81 & 83 have RoF 8, standard is 7.
Australia 590-593 and Italy 418-420 have 40 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 50. NB also applies to Weapon 2 for Italian units.

107mm - Greece 348 & 349 and Turkey 405 & 406 have RoF 7, standard is 6.

120mm – Jordan 558 has Crew 4, USA 518 has 5, standard is 6.
Eritrea 73 has Speed 0, standard is 1.
USA 518 & Belgium 188 have Weight 1, standard is 2.
USA 518 and Turkey 408 & 409 have RoF 6, standard is 5.

160mm – N.Yemen 587 has Crew 6, standard is 8.


Class 255 – Mortar subtype D

60mm – Thailand 173 has RoF 9, standard is 8.

82mm Vasilek – Yugoslavia 597 has Speed 1, others have 0.
E.Germany 225 has 48 Weapon 1 HE rounds, others have 56. It also has 48 HEAT rounds, others have 4.

120mm – Poland 527-529 have Size 0, standard is 1. They also have Crew 4 (standard is 6), Speed 0 (standard is 1) and Weight 1 (standard is 2).
France 475 has Speed 2, France 476 has 0, standard is 1.
France 475 & 476 have 30 Weapon 1 and 2 (mortar) rounds, standard is 40.

Richard H