Any One Still Playing This Game?

[Fyron]

Civ3 was definitely a huge step backwards, even from Civ2 (plus expansions). It was more like Civ1.5. The true Civ3 was the Call to Power game... Civ4 has gone in somewhat of a different direction though. A few of the features of SMAC (and the Call to Power games) made their way into Civ4, but overall its gone in a much different direction than the older titles.

[Xrati]

I agree with AT on the fact that he, along with many other talented people put A LOT of hours in making ship sets and heavy modding. Then SEV comes out and pulls a �Microsofty� and changes all the formats for the file types!!! Do you know how much really good work was left only to the SEIV game and not able to get into SEV without major modifications? It boggles my mind to think that work was ignored by the SEV version and that when SEVI comes out, will they pull another page from Gate�s book?

[Captain Kwok]

To be fair, the only significant change was the addition of .x models for facilities and ships. The remainder of the required files are still more or less the same image files as before.

It's just unfortunate that most of the sets designed for SE:IV were done with programs that didn't lend themselves well to the format used for SE:V.

[Fyron]

That's rather alarmist, don't you think? SE4 invalidated all the SE3 shipsets too (which was good, because they were just a set of tiny icons anyways), as well ditching as the binary data file format in favor of plain text files (also good). There were several hundred shipsets made for SE3 that became useless for SE4... Should we decry that too? SE5 is just another evolution, with real models alongside the portraits, and formula-based data files. There wasn't anything that could be done to keep the static data file format around, without a huge amount of bug-prone code to try to shoe-horn it into the system. Same with the purely 2d nature of the shipsets... How do you advance the system with 3d and still support model-less sets? SE6 will almost without doubt use the same model format (and hopefully Aaron negotiated continued use of the models in future releases), and similar data files, perhaps with more functions or user-definable functions. I don't see anything "Microsofty" about it...

[Xrati]

Fyron, my point.
SE3 mod work - gone!
SE4 mod work - gone!
SE5 mod work - ???
As the game progressed so did the work being done on it. To lose all this hard work and effort without at least trying to incorporate it into your new system just doesn't seem fair. I know I have some ships on DoGA like many others do. You would think that being a 3D program they might have figured out how to use it in the newer release (SE5).
I just feel a better attempt to (at least) try to use current work could have been made.
Yes I'm aware of the image constraints on graphics of using DoGA models in the 3D engine. Things change and some things get left behind, but I still think it was a great loss of some really great work!

[Fyron]

There are roughly 8 billion different formats for 3d models out there (far more than just Doga was used for SE4 shipsets), and it would be difficult to support all of them. It is far better overall to pick an industry standard, like the native DirectX model format. Something like 3ds would have worked, but would have raised the bar as far as actually making stuff for the game what with the whole $4000 modeling program and all.

Doga's format is not well suited for real time rendering in a game engine and probably should never be considered for such use. I'm not aware of any well-supported libraries for real time rendering either, unlike the more standardized formats (.x, 3ds). However, it is entirely possible to convert Doga models to .x format, and make use of them in SE5 (and even Starfury). They tend to be of rather high polygon count and need some reworking of texture info, but they can be made to work.

As far as I can tell, the only practical way to support Doga natively in the game would be to abandon all plans for 3d...

[Atrocities]

Doga models do work in SE V, in fact they work quite well. However it is the texture mapping of these models that has proven to be the problem.

[Xrati]

I appreciate the post Fyron. I know that you have been here on this board for a long time. I just read the early reports about modding SE5 and felt that it was �Start from Scratch�, but as you just explained there were some parts that made it through. Maybe I just miss the old discussions like this and feel that just a little more than a game was lost when they moved to SE5.

AT, that�s still a lot of work to re-texture all those ship sets that you did. You did a great job on them and many others out there, did too! I hope you decide to keep going on the STM and maybe someday they�ll come out with a program to reduce the polygon count for DoGA models.

[Gandalf Parker]

I think the general feel is still "Was the shift to higher level formats in SEV worth it?"

I know (as stupid as it seems to some of us) that sales are made and lost based on look and feel. There is a sizeable crowd which refuses to pay "new game prices" for games that look to them like its from a decade ago.

On the other hand, its not SEIV which impressed me. Try loading it and playing it vanilla from the CD. Feels like a demo with such a small galaxy and only 8 races. Its the SEIV as it become with player mods. Huge galaxies, many aditonal images, over 300 races, better AI, a great online signup site for multiplayer games, etc etc etc.

As far as I can see, the shift is still hanging up the modding. SEV is not becoming what SEIV is. I own both and Im still waiting for SEV to become what I consider playable. Now, whether or not the sales was able to prove the shift worth it I would love to know. Im often in discussions with other games developers. Also the shift from a great publicity/online-purchase/support publisher to a marketing/DD/buy-out publisher.

So far, if there is an SEVI Id like to see Aaron take the newly gained player base and pull it back to the old arrangment (altho I understand he has sold the ability to do that)

Gandalf Parker

[Xrati]

Gandalf, some of the best games I've ever played were low end graphics, BUT I played them into the wee hours of the night. Empire Deluxe was one of them along with games by Avalon Hill like Midway, Dreadnaughts and many others. They were good games and provoked an interest without glamour or glitz! SE4 was that type of game. The modding and patches made it that much better. I do not believe SE5 is in the same category as SE4. BUT it does have Glitz and Glamour!