Question about EA Tir Na N'og

[Torgon]

@Colonial

Not really trying for an economics debate, and not asking for someone to lay out a huge spreadsheet of the answers. Just want arguments that compare the relative impacts of a change rather than the absolute impacts on any one strategy. Festin just provided one good argument about relative changes. Thats all i'm really looking for.

Sometimes I just have a tendency to ramble about relative efficiency, constrained optimization, etc. If it happens again let me know.

But anyway, this thread kind of got away from its intended purpose and veared off into a discussion of hammers. Original question still stands, what do you do with Tir Na n'Og? Without hammers? Are they broken beyond repair?

[kianduatha]

Remember also when comparing TNN and Fomoria without hammers that CBM also gave TNN some nice bonuses like lower encumbrance on all their Sidhe troops/commanders and Awe on the Ri, where Fomoria got higher base encumbrance on their Giants, as well as potent anti-SC measures such as Song of Power and battlefield enchantments that limit the usefulness of ranged weapons. I think there's no room to claim that Fomoria is categorically superior without actually testing out what TNN has these days.

Actually looking back you claim that CBM hasn't really boosted TNN in any appreciable way. You may wish to look again.

[13lackGu4rd]

Torgon, as Festin started to mention, the difference is huge. thugs and SCs just don't use the same mechanics to win, so comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges and asking whether it's still worth it to buy apples if oranges are 25% cheaper than they used to be.

now, seeing that you want more concrete examples than apples vs oranges than I'll give you some actual dominions reasoning. thugs are generally used as raiders, which means that they need to be able to defeat PD(and not even a lot of it), the key is maneuverability so they can be where you need them and than move out to other places. therefore thugs don't need a lot of equipment, a brand+shield is usually more than enough, however these 2 items are crucial in most scenarios. SCs on the other hand are not simply "teleporting raiders", that's what thugs are(in TNN's case, cloud trapezing). SCs are meant to take on large armies with some magic support as well. how you build SCs is very situation dependent, to what you have, what your opponent has, what counters he has available, what he is fielding, etc. so their cost varies greatly.

now, the other side of this equation is the numbers game. for a mass thug strategy to be effective(TNN, Eriu, Van if you take that road, etc) you need critical mass otherwise their impact will be minimal and your strategy will fail. what critical mass is depends on your opponent, a good rule of thumb is to be able to take out all of your opponent's undefended(as in PD only, a few stragglers are allowed, but nothing heavier) provinces while your main army(or armies) attack his defended areas and forts. thugs alone won't win you any wars, you still need your armies for heavy lifting.

SCs on the other hand can be used both as "raiders" though that's usually a waste unless you're swimming in SCs(late game tart whoring for example) as well as heavy lifters. SCs should be able to deal with the enemy's large armies and storm some of his forts(if not all of them, again depends on the circumstances). even a single SC can do wonders if equipped properly, though obviously the more the better(as it usually is).

so back to your TNN vs Fomoria example. your main missing component is critical mass. there are other factors too, some that I've mentioned(needing other components or can go solo) and others that I haven't. once you include those the scales almost immediately tip to Fomoria's favor. hence why thug nations have been hurt the most with the hammer nerf, and also why QM has worked hard on buffing them.

[Festin]

Adding a bit to my previous comment, there is one other thing to be said in favour of using hammers: hammers are a safe investment, while thug gear isn't. So, it's not like "you have 3 thugs or you have a hammer and 2 thugs and that's it". In the first case, when thugs die, you lose expensive items, your entire investment. In the second case, you lose cheaper items, and your hammer is still safe in your capital, to be used for the rest of the game.

[iRFNA]

I wonder how long it will be before there can be strategy discussions that don't turn into rants about omghammers...

[Festin]

Originally Posted by iRFNA

I wonder how long it will be before there can be strategy discussions that don't turn into rants about omghammers...

Maybe as soon as this needless change is reverted, either in the main mod or in a usable custom version.

[iRFNA]

It's absurdly easy to do yourself. Just do it already and stop whining.

Find this:

#selectitem "Dwarven Hammer"
#constlevel 8
#end

And remove it.

And let people discuss the TNN strategy with all of its changes without the unending complaints.

[Festin]

It is not easy, considering that a lot of other changes were already made to counterbalance the removal of hammers, so anyone who tries to make a custom version of CBM will have to decide which parts to remove and which to leave.

And I am sure that the discussion of strategy will proceed perfectly fine as soon as you stop derailing the thread with your meaningless and aggressive remarks. Thank you in advance.

[Colonial]

It's absurdly easy to do yourself. Just do it already and stop whining.

Thats a bit daft from the perspective of a bunch of MP players. Don't rightly care if I get hammers or not SP .


@ Torgon:

I reckon the fact that they pay clever people full time to modal one system would be evedance of how unrealistic it would be to accurately modal another system without in entire corporate R&D department or think tank at out disposal :P

I have a personal pet pieve with people imposing economic/statistical models where they don't fit. I studied history at univerisy and that discipline is full of instances of people trying to study an economic history without re-evaluating econ's basic assumptions. so they end up analysing renaissance trade, for example, while assuming shipping costs are zero (which works in a modern, oil-feuled, context). But of course in reality renaissance shipping costs were on the order of 350% .

[llamabeast]

I was planning on making a "CBM 1.83: Hammer Edition" once CBM 1.83 comes out. It will just put the hammers back and undo a small number of the item cheapenings. That's not because I disagree with the hammer change (I like it), but because it seems to me like a lot of people want it. However anyone could do it and I'd strongly encourage someone else to do it if they fancy! It's only a few minutes' work.