Danish TO & E

[DRG]

Integrating a FO into every company ( or platoon !! ) needlessly increases the cost of the company which is why we don't do that except in very rare cases with specialist units and leave buying FO to the player. This should be obvious simply by looking at how other coys in the game are constructed.

And "Supply Canisters " ??? give me a break.

If you want to build a formation based on existing game reality and submit it as a potential addition to the Danish OOB then build one and post it as an R&D OOB I'll look at it and see if I can use some of it. Otherwise the only thing that's going to change in that formation is the start date.


Don

[Palle]

Thanks for the positive response Don.

As for the cannisters, historically they should be there as Home Guard Companies were self-supplied, independent units covering 5- 200 square Km and supposed to go to ground and wage guerrilla after we were overrolled by the WAPA.

That being said, if you look at my final proposal you will notice a marked lack of ammo containers. They add nothing to the game as such.

Point taken about the FOs, they were the only way I could think off to mirror a 2-3 man command group of a Platoon. The Plt Cmdr never had a group in the Danish Home Guard. The Comp Cmdr could have a group of ineffective staff aides with SMGs. HJV Reserve could reflect that. But the Plt Commander operated with only his Second and/or a single soldier for guarding his back.

Perhaps Scouts would do as commander instead.

The thing is that HG companies were stretched thin with regards to manpower and heavy arms, and if the game wants to reflect that we cannot have lots of heavily armed infantry units. Each Company would have 2-4 Carl Gustav and an unspecified number of LAWs, one handgrenade for each man, a few satchel charges and C4 blocks. The only thing we had in abundance was 7.62 ammo.


Hence my proposal. I will alter it a bit and chuck it over at R&D, then give you the break you ask for.


The Home Guard was only organised in 1949, from 1945 till then, what became the Home Guard was called "Hjemmeværnsforeninger", which probably translates best into Home Guard Coorperations. These consisted of the old Resistance fighters refusing to lay down their arms and were somewhat anarchistic, best way to include them would probably be irregulars. They were armed largely with SMGs, Pistols and Hand Grenades as these had been the weapons of the Resistance movement.


I have a question about game mechanics though;
The Home Guard's primary task were surveillance and guard. We would survey the local area (especially the Seniors) and guard both the regular army's muster and vital installations.
Secondarily we would attack special forces being inserted in our area as we had a VERY short response time and when the invasion would pour up through Jutland we would make pinprick attacks to slow it down and inflict losses while minimising our own loss and buy time for reinforcements and a counterattack to be organised.

If overrolled we would attack supply lines, vital installations, key personnel, etc. while still minimising our own losses. Pinpricks and disappear.

Can such a tactic be implemented in game? Can units attack then retreat and hide or go off map to reflect us going to ground or chinging back into civilian clothing?

I may have missed something somewhere and if so I apologise, but I seem to not have found it.


On a different note, I seem to recall that our 203 mm Howizers are discontinued in 1966 in game (I am on my laptop away from my game, thus I have to go on memory and cannot recall the unit #). But looking at my various sources, lists, etc. I see 12 of them noted as being still in service in 1990.

[Hviid]

Don, I agree.

There aren’t any Danish units, regular army or second rate home guard having specialized FO within the units.
True, regular army NCO’s and officers are taught to call artillery (they don’t have any specialized materiel for this), but the game already reflects this.

I have the following corrections to the existing Danish OOB, regarding the regular army.
The majority of the corrections is the fact that there are only three units (squads or tanks within a platoon).

Formation 005, Unit/Formation 2 should be a new Formation 049 (Medium Mortar Platoon) and in the period 1992 – 2004 Formation 014.

Formation 006, add unit 099 – see below for further regarding mortars.

Formation 007, Unit/Formation 009 (RCL sec), only until 1985.
The same goes for unit 273.

Formation 014, exists only until 2004. (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m113a2.htm)

Formation 036, only three squads (Unit 253) and one light mortar team (see the last paragraph)..
A bit tricky though, since the light mortar was a part of the third squad (like unit 348).

Unit 260, only until 2004. From 2005 there have only been 6 men in a regular infantry squad, in order to be able to fit within the CV90. For ease of training and doctrine all infantry units, regardless of transportation have been changed to 6 men. As units 426-428.

New unit (429?) with weapon 30 (Carl Gustaf) instead of weapon 23 (PVV M/97).

(Weapon 023 PVV M/97 – correct term PVV M/94).

I see you have made the correct changes for unit 296, since our engineers use the same for training and doctrine reasons. This should start from 2005. Unit 294 should stop in 2004.

Formation 038 and unit 158, only exits until 2004. (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m270.htm)

Formation 039, only three squads (unit 350), one light mortar team and three APC (unit 73).

Formation 040, only three engineers squads (probably 1 x 288 and 2 x 289 – I’m not sure of the exact configuration in the early days, but since the 70’s the three squads have been organized the same).

Formation 043, Heavy Mortar has been out between 12/2004 and 1/2011.
The heavy mortar platoon consists of 4 x unit 104. Only used at battalion level.
(http://www.artilleriet.dk/Morter/)

Formation 049, consists of only three x SP Mortar and only until 7/2006.
Unit 031 only until 7/2006.

Formation 100, see formation 005 regarding mortars.

Formation 101, only three squads and APC’s.

Formation 199, see formation 007 regarding AT gun sec.

Formation 196, 198 and 200. Only three squads in a platoon. I don’t know if the + marker means it’s a reinforced platoon – then it’s of course ok.

Formation 207, again only three squads and APCs in the platoon.
Two new formations could be made up here. Very often CV90 (called IKK in Danish) platoons is made up as 2+1 or 1+2, meaning two or one CV90 and one or two M113 in the platoon. This is partly economic reasons and partly space reasons – there really isn’t any room for assets (i.e. sniper and FOO) in the CV90.

Formation 220, again only three squads and APCs.

Formation 301, 303, 305 and 311. There have never been more than three tanks within a Danish tank platoon.
Regarding 317, too long before my time – and I haven’t found any colleges knowing anything regarding tank destroyers.

New LAW team (unit 314?) with weapon 023, since 1995.

Unit 337 – never existed.

New unit. USA unit 857, MRAP from 3/2011. (http://forsvaret.dk/HOK/Nyt%20og%20Presse/ISAF/Pages/20MRAPk%C3%B8ret%C3%B8jeroverdragestilstyrkeniAfgh anistan.aspx).

Unit 092 – 097 Light Mortar exists until 1999, consisting of one 51mm and a two man crew. Used only within the platoon level, as a part of the third squad. This could of course operate independently, thus weaken the third squad. For game purpose, it’s probably not relevant, since the usually wasn’t that far away from the rest of the squad.

Coy level used the SP medium mortar (81mm) until 7/2006 where it were exchanged with a modern 60mm light mortar from 8/2006 (Spanish made). This isn’t SP.
The new and enhanced 60mm is just as god or even a bit better than the “old” 81mm.

The text in some of the links are in Danish - use google translator and/or just look at the dates

Write me, if you need more info.
Best regards.
Hviid

[Mobhack]

And you can simply buy ammo cannisters from the misc menu should you as a player desire them. Plus any requisite light trucks to move the things.

The AI cannot use them, and so if added to a stock formation - has wasted points. Ammo units are only ever to be added to human player only formations. (We used to have some e.g. SPA and SAM batteries like that - but may have removed these?).

Same with company HQs. A UK rifle company HQ really should be realised as a couple of land rover FFRs, and a little command group perhaps (if at all). But the AI would simply kamikaze any coy HQ soft MT provided by default. So rifle co HQS are realised as a plain rifle section. Specialist command groups advertise themselves as blindingly obvious 'kick me now!' items - so should not be used either. A human player might take steps to hide them - but the AI will not.

FOOS are expensive items, and quite simply if no real use to the AI (it may use an in LOS FOO if it happens to stumble on a target and it happens to survive, but it has no 'FOO plan' other than 'kamikaze me too'). Also - many human players will object to having a surfeit of compulsory extra FOs, being quite happy to buy maybe just the one, or being pure 'tread heads' who don't want no steenking artillery or (yech!) grunts !. (So the Norwegian tank coys have 2 of the things for 'doctrine' - but there is also a 'pure' tank coy for the AI, and sucj humans as don't want a fleet of FOOS).

A lot of what you are trying to do simply cannot be done in therms of the game engine, and especially the AI, limitations and/or practicalities. Or it forces human players to have stuff they consider 'optional extras'.

You can only escape off-map over your own baseline. Can be useful to save giving the enemy points for the destruction of the unit, or to save an experienced unit in a total rout.

Andy

[DRG]

It is a waste of everyones time and effort to submit OOB proposals that do not fit in with GAME REALITY and GAME REALITY is reflected in the existing unit and formation structure of the game and building an OOB that deviates from that formula will never be added to the game and will always be rejected so if you ( Palle ) build me an improved HV formation DO NOT try to re-invent the wheel. Suggestions like that usually come from players new to the game and don't understand how it works and the comment about the FO's reflects this....... EVERY x0 unit is a trained "FO". He won't be as good as a specialist but he can call arty so that fulfills his ability to call for arty so a specialist FO is NOT required.

Re Hviid's suggestions. These have been placed on the list and at some point in the next two months I will get to them and when I do there *may* be questions....or not but now they are the last item on a list that will be ( if nobody adds anything more.... ) at least 115 pages long when it's completed.


Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Palle

On a different note, I seem to recall that our 203 mm Howizers are discontinued in 1966 in game (I am on my laptop away from my game, thus I have to go on memory and cannot recall the unit #). But looking at my various sources, lists, etc. I see 12 of them noted as being still in service in 1990.

When you do get a chance to open the game up you will discover that your memory is faulty and these guns ARE NOT out of service in the game in 1966 but stay in service until the end of 1998 and I would ask EVERYONE who reads this who might consider making OOB suggestions to PLEASE check the game BEFORE running to the forums and relying on your memory

Thank you

Don

[Palle]

Thanks again. I am a nitpicker for accuracy, bear with me. But I see your points and immediately conceeded the FO. Very good one about specialist units as HQs with a Kamikaze AI becoming targets for cunning players. That is one I had not considered.

I will have a look at the HJV Company again and see if there is a middle way reflecting more the reality.


Hviid, I already brought up the 6-men groups as the IKK can only carry 6 and I am pretty certain Don implemented it already. But to complicate matters the change is only in those units actually using the IKK. I am pretty certain Don stated earlier that he would keep 10 man groups and set the carry capacity to 10.



The MRAP:

The Logistics Company operating from Camp Bastion also has 40 MRAP 6x6 Cougars that we have rented from the US and equipped with IR and a 12.7 mg. The first 20 arrived March 2011.
From August 2009, the GD G270CDI has been exchanged for the AM General HMMWV M1045A2 Recon, known to Danes as the Jûlkat, in the Danish LOPESKs. Who has now upgraded to 8 man groups with 4 men in each Jûlkat.


The MLRS M270 has been phased out in 2008.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Hviid

[size=3]

Write me, if you need more info.
Best regards.
Hviid

The following issues need clarification

????????? Formation 005, Unit/Formation 2 should be a new Formation 049 (Medium Mortar Platoon) and in the period 1992 – 2004 Formation 014.

????????? Formation 006, add unit 099 – see below for further regarding mortars....******unit 99 is THREE MORTARS. I do not believe a Danish rifle coy carries around three mortars


????????? This makes no sense whatsoever>> Formation 007, Unit/Formation 009 (RCL sec), only until 1985. ????? It does if its formation 15


????????? Formation 014, exists only until 2004. (http://www.armyvehicles.dk/m113a2.htm)---------- Really ?? So what about unit 069 - CV9035 DK - Available 01/105 to 12/120 ??? Drop that formation and that unit is orphaned

**** I have NO IDEA what "HAS BEEN OUT" means. ---------Formation 043, Heavy Mortar has been out between 12/2004 and 1/2011.


>>>>>>The heavy mortar platoon consists of 4 x unit 104. Only used at battalion level. ****** You need to learn to add up the number of mortars in a unit then the number of units in the formation and if you do you will find there are 4 mortars in that formation


????????? Formation 100, see formation 005 regarding mortars.****** we loop back to another issue that is unclear



Don

[Hviid]

Hi Don.

Thanks for your questions, made me to look over my remarks once more and thus I have been able to give you some more info – so here goes some long answers to short questions.

I have verified my information and found a god visual homepage. I had a bit of trouble finding some non-restricted info.
http://www.geocities.ws/johnny97dk/dansk/kampenhe.htm
Even though it isn’t an official site, the info is fairly correct regarding the period 1985 until 2004. See my notes regarding the charts.
The first chart is the tank squadron. Correct.
The second chart is the recce squadron. Correct.
The third chart is the light recce squadron. Correct.
The forth chart is the Mechanized Infantry Coy. Slightly incorrect – the platoons didn’t have a jeep.
The fifth chart is the Motorized Infantry Coy. The Infantry Coy was the same – just without own transportation. Slightly incorrect, the only had two 81mm Mortar teams/squads and the platoons didn’t have a jeep.
The sixth chart (Piranha Coy) Slightly incorrect – there wasn’t a forth platoon with M113 and the platoons didn’t have a jeep.
The seventh chart is the Artillery battery. Don’t know much about their organization, but six M109 is correct.
For all, the Medic squad and the Stinger squad are attached assets, not standard organization.


Regarding formation 005.
The Mech Inf Coy consist of:

1/1965 – 12/1984:
One HQ unit with one M113.
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)),
One RCL Section (two jeeps with 106mm RCL – formation 015*).
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.


1/1985 – 12/1991:
One HQ unit with one M113.
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)),
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.


1/1992 – 12/2004:
One HQ unit with one M113.
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)),
One Support APC Section (two PNMK M/92 DK – formation 014).
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.


1/2005 – 7/2006:
One HQ unit with one M113.
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),
One Medium Mortar Section (two squads with two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)).
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.


8/2006 – until now:
One HQ unit with one M113.
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three M113),
One Light Mortar Section (three 60mm Mortar and one M113).
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.

I don’t know whatever the correct game term for M113 self propelled 81mm mortar carrier is M125A1 or M106 – I can’t really see any difference between those two.


Regarding unit 032.
End date should be 7/2006.


Regarding formation 006.
You’re correct – they only carried two 81mm Mortars. Unit 099 – 102 should be changed so it consists of two 81mm Mortars.
Additional, the end date for formation 006 should be 12/2004 or it could be kept for game reasons to reflect a Mech Inf Coy operating without its vehicles.


Regarding Unit 100:
End date should be 12/1995.


Regarding formation 007.
The self propelled RCL went out of service by the end of 1985.
So formation 015 should have end date 12/1985 as well. I oversaw that one.

Regarding formation 015.
I can’t find any data showing we actually had unit 335 - I think you can delete it.
Unit 336 and 337 is correct. Start date 1/56 is correct.


Regarding formation 014.
My first info is correct. It exists until 12/2004.
The CV9035DK (unit 069) was never mend to be and has never been used as a replacement for the PNMK M/92 DK.
The CV9035 DK has been used to form up Coy’s riding the CV9035 DK instead of M113.
Not as a replacement for M113 but just as a new type of a formation.

Regarding unit 062 and 069.
We have only bought one type. There is a slight difference in armour thickness and survivability. I don’t know which one is the correct.
The start date is incorrect. The first ones were delivered in September 2007 and they wasn’t really operational (due to training and doctrine issues) until the beginning of 2010 (1/2010 for game purpose).


Regarding formation 43.
HAS BEEN OUT – meaning has been out of service between 12/2004 and 1/2011.
Sorry for my English

Regarding unit 104.
Ok – I see there is TWO mortars in that unit
Anyway, there should be four mortars within the heavy mortar platoon (unit 104 – 107).
Whatever it’s best for game reasons to make one formation with four 120mm mortar teams or one unit with four mortars I leave it up to you to decide . I have never seen them split up in real life.


Regarding formation 100.
The start date is correct. The end date should be 12/2010.
One HQ unit with one Piranha.
Three Mech Inf Pl (each three squads and three Piranhas),
One Medium Mortar Section (two 81mm Self Propelled Mortar M113 (M125A1 or M106)).
One Combat Service support section with two ammo trucks.


We have stopped using the Piranhas as an Infantry APC. They are still in service as APC for engineers and in a lot of other various roles.


I’m a bit uncertain regarding facts before beginning of the 80’s when I entered service, but I’ll try to find some elderly colleagues who can enlighten me and back their memory up with evidence...


I hope this have clarified things. Otherwise you’re welcome back

Hviid

[DRG]

We have stopped using the Piranhas as an Infantry APC. They are still in service as APC for engineers and in a lot of other various roles.

If not Piranhas........what's being used as an APC..... the 113's ??