Guide to MA Agartha (In prog) - Pretenders - Page 6

HoneyBadger · #51 June 21st, 2007, 05:15 PM

Yeah, but that adds a *lot* of research time to an already heavy research nation, and I'm pretty sure the oracles are 1 per ritual. Ofcourse, if the fates gifted me with a dozen of them right off the bat, I wouldn't spit at them

Lazy_Perfectionist · #52 June 21st, 2007, 10:36 PM

If you want to get a Marble Oracle researched a lot quicker, take magic 3, and recruit Golem Crafters every turn until you find an independent with a decent researcher. You'll get a second research center up a lot quicker and cheaper than another fortress, and even if you switch your capital to Earth Readers, you'll keep pulling in more research.

HoneyBadger · #53 June 22nd, 2007, 07:50 PM

I really wish golem crafters had a forge bonus. I think it would be appropriate, and at the same time, offset the fact that you can set up an enormous forging orgy in EA with Agartha, using a Forge Lord-that or allow them to freespawn some golems, since they *are* golem-Crafters.

Old age kills these guys off quick, well before you ever get golems, if you start building them right off the bat.

The more I look into strategies for MA Agartha, the more I seem to come up with good things for EA to do, or that EA does better, and that seems to me a bit of a problem.

Lazy_Perfectionist · #54 June 22nd, 2007, 08:59 PM

What? Do remember that even 10 attentive statues (bottom of the line) can do horrible damage to an ocean of chaff. It's no trouble to have 5 golem crafters pump out two teams to be led by a couple Earth Readers. And Mechanical Militia/Clockwork Horrors are able to flesh your forces out, if only they didn't take till C5. They may be a bit weaker, but they don't waste damage on overkill, and they have an amazing set of resistances. With attentive statues, you pay 4 gems to engage one target. With Claymen (Enchant 4, same school of research, different path of elemental magic), and the construction golems, you are able engage about one target per gem you spend.

As regards to "Old age kills these guys off quick, well before you ever get golems". It's true, old age is harsh, but even with drain 1, its possible to get Attentive Statues out by the first year. First, you really don't have much to spend money on. Second, Oracles of the Ancients are nice, but a complete waste your first year. Third, you don't need to search for gems as aggressively as other nations. You can afford to expand slowly and still summon your nationals.

Code:



Hiring Golem Crafters, Drain Two, no pretender.



Spring: 0 +  0 =   0

LSpr:   0 +  5 =   5

ESum:   5 + 10 =  15

MSum:  15 + 15 =  30

LSum:  30 + 20 =  50

EWin:  50 + 25 =  75

MWin:  75 + 30 = 105

LWin: 105 + 35 = 140

ESpr: 140 + 40 = 180

MSpr: 180 + 45 = 225

If you have a Pretender with as little as 8 research (after drain), you can get them by the first year. If there was an observer mode, you'll see I'm the top researcher in my current MP game, jaguar. And I switched to varied commanders after my fourth Golem Crafter. Though in that game, I took an excessive magic scale. There is middle ground to be found.

I will give you thugging, and necromancy, though. A forge based strategy is probably better with EA, who has giant, non-capital commanders.

HoneyBadger · #55 June 23rd, 2007, 01:37 AM

I'm not saying freespawn attentive statues, I'm saying freespawn *some* kind of statue. Maybe 1 clayman a year or something.

Salamander8 · #56 June 23rd, 2007, 04:53 PM

Gift of Health has been a godsend in my SP game as MP Agartha I've been mentioning here. It's a great spell as it is, but it's been curing so many of my Golem Crafters' and my Ancient Oracles' old age problems that I'm more than glad I pushed to get an indy S1N2 mage to N5 (between empowering and items) to be able to cast it.

Salamander8 · #57 June 23rd, 2007, 08:42 PM

Here's an extreme example of the golem cult in action.

This pic is of a Siege Golem in a Dom:10 province:

Here's another Siege Golem that is in an enemy dominion:

Pretty extreme difference in hit points there!

Lazy_Perfectionist · #58 July 8th, 2007, 03:54 PM

They've discussed this quite a bit in other threads, but heres some numbers to assign to the situation.

Your Pale Ones are coldblooded. What precisely does this mean?
They get an encumbrance penalty of one in a perfectly neutral 0 heat/0 cold environment.
They get an encumbrance penalty of four in a one cold province. So yeah, you do want to take at least one heat scale, even with a high dominion, else winter will mess with all your strats and best mages.

Lazy_Perfectionist · #59 July 13th, 2007, 01:54 PM

As MA Agartha, research is very tempting, thanks to your earth income. But I must say, resist, at least for a short while.

The very first thing I'm going to do in my next few games is recruit lowly scouts- at least two, depending on geography.

This will do two things for you - save some gold for projects like additional castles or dealing with events, and let you make an informed research decision.

If you're only three provinces from Jotunheim, for instance, Evocation 3 is crucial (for Magma Bolts), while lesser earth elementals, or Attentive Statues will be next to useless. Research into enchantment or conjuration or alteration will be next to useless, unless you've got some particular short-term strategy around that.

On the other hand, if you expect to be rushed by a smaller race, Lesser Earth Elementals can come in handy thanks to trampling. And for 10 earth gems, you can spawn five off of a single lowly earth reader, saving you further gold compared to a golem crafter or Oracle of the Ancients.

And if you've got a decent buffer of indies, you can just decide what chokepoints you need to seize first while you diligently toil away towards your strategic research goal- most likely Enlivened Sentinels or Attentive Statues.

If you go straight for Attentive Statues, you'll regret it if you start hazardously close to a race with a natural counter. Trampling, perhaps? Jotunheim with ~22 strength certainly doesn't have to worry much about 22 protection opponents.

Knowledge is power - you must know your opponent before you can know yourself - blah blah blah. Diplomacy is your best bet, but sometimes locations just don't allow for that, and it won't work at all in singleplayer.

atul · #60 July 13th, 2007, 02:03 PM

Heh, sorry LP, but I just must disagree with you on details, again.

Namely, as someone in the IRC channel noted (lch IIRC), Destruction hurts giants BAD. All that armour stripped, you can on average trade one infantry to one Jotun. Of course, Magma Bolts and assorted stuff are also viable, but now I must contradict my earlier claims. Alteration is quite good against anyone in heavy armour. Agree on enchantment though, in conjuration you get Earth Power which is pure manna from the skies.