Pretender Balance Mod

[LintMan]

Originally posted by PvK:
Seems like that might be a good idea (altering the base path costs by a factor, and then giving that sort of factor as an advantage to pretenders like the humans).

I'll be interested to hear the opinions of folks who have played humanoids and rainbows successfully as to whether they think this could be unbalanced for strong RB/human players.

I had thought the idea Chris mentioned was interesting as well and was thinking about bringing it up, so thanks for saving me the effort, Chris!

I'm not an expert on the balance issues, but I have done some calculations on what you could do with cheaper costs per point.

Let's assume the Crone, with 10/point initial paths, no starting magic. Costs listed are just for the magic paths, and don't include the initial Crone cost (25) or dominion increases, etc.

At standard 8pts/level:
One path to L2: 26
7 paths to L2: 182
8 paths to L2: 208

One path to L4: 82
3 paths to L4: 246
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 376
7 paths to L4: 574
8 paths to L4: 656

One path to L8: 290
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 372
2 paths to L8: 580
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 662

At 7pts/level:
One path to L2: 24
7 paths to L2: 168
8 paths to L2: 192

One path to L4: 73
3 paths to L4: 219
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 339
7 paths to L4: 511
8 paths to L4: 584

One path to L8: 255
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 328
2 paths to L8: 510
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 583

At 6pts/level:
One path to L2: 22
7 paths to L2: 154
8 paths to L2: 176

One path to L4: 64
3 paths to L4: 192
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 302
7 paths to L4: 448
8 paths to L4: 512

One path to L8: 220
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 284
2 paths to L8: 440
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 504

At 5pts/level:
One path to L2: 20
7 paths to L2: 140
8 paths to L2: 160

One path to L4: 55
3 paths to L4: 165
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 265
7 paths to L4: 385
8 paths to L4: 440

One path to L8: 185
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 240
2 paths to L8: 370
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 425

At 4pts/level:
One path to L2: 18
7 paths to L2: 126
8 paths to L2: 144

One path to L4: 46
3 paths to L4: 138
5 L2, 3 L4 paths: 228
7 paths to L4: 322
8 paths to L4: 368

One path to L8: 150
1 L8, 1 L4 path: 196
2 paths to L8: 300
2 L8, 1 L4 paths: 346

Overall, it seems to me that 7pts/level wouldn't be an unreasonable boost for the human pretenders. Maybe 6pts/level might work, particularly if it was offset with a larger new-path startup cost. Anything below 6pts/level IMHO seems like it could be very unbalancing.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
There was a proposal a while back to give some pretender forms a new ability: increasing the level of a magic path would cost less (or more) points. If humanoids paid only 50% of normal points to increase the level of a path, in addition to their low new path cost, they could be real magical powerhouses and have strong blessings too.

If you go that route too far, there's a risk to get unbalanced results, with human mages getting mid- or high blessings effects cheaper than other pretenders that are supposed to be proficient in these paths (eg, nature-9 earth-9 would cost less on a Master Druid than on a Great Mother, which isn't something you want).

To eliminate this issue, I'd suggest something like:

Increase in a path the pretender (any type) starts with: 6 points * extra level

Increase in a path the pretender (human mage type) doesn't start with : 8 points * extra level

Increase in a path the pretender (other types) doesn't start with : 10 points * extra level

That's the idea, the numeric values are just examples and may be altered. The base value used in 'paths you don't start with' could also be a function of 'new paths cost X'. Thus a Naga would also pay less than a Virtue to increase her magic in paths both aren't initially proficient in. Finally, you might want to change the cost of new paths if you make extensive use of this system.

[ June 19, 2004, 07:05: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Here is the Mod.

It's not really pretty. It includes a few other things. But it has changes to most of the initial Human Pretenders.

I haven't decided exactly how I like it (or like it at all in fact), but you can feel free to give your input. Also there is only so much you can do with the Mod Tools in their current form.

Zen's Vision

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
There was a proposal a while back to give some pretender forms a new ability: increasing the level of a magic path would cost less (or more) points. If humanoids paid only 50% of normal points to increase the level of a path, in addition to their low new path cost, they could be real magical powerhouses and have strong blessings too.

If you go that route too far, there's a risk to get unbalanced results, with human mages getting mid- or high blessings effects cheaper than other pretenders that are supposed to be proficient in these paths (eg, nature-9 earth-9 would cost less on a Master Druid than on a Great Mother, which isn't something you want).

---

Actually I *do* want that. Fat Mama has 10x the hit points, regeneration, trample and higher dominion and is a SC with a few turns of research (or no research at all if indy strength is low enough). The Master Druid has squat aside from his magic - no physical power, no dominion, weak special ability (I think he gets poison immunity and extra vinemen?). If he can't be magically stronger for the same amount of points, or equally strong for less points, what's the point of taking him? Isn't that what this thread is about?

Half cost may be a bit too powerful though. It might make three or even four 9's achievable and that would be a bit much.

To eliminate this issue, I'd suggest something like:

Increase in a path the pretender (any type) starts with: 6 points * extra level

Increase in a path the pretender (human mage type) doesn't start with : 8 points * extra level

Increase in a path the pretender (other types) doesn't start with : 10 points * extra level

That's the idea, the numeric values are just examples and may be altered. The base value used in 'paths you don't start with' could also be a function of 'new paths cost X'. Thus a Naga would also pay less than a Virtue to increase her magic in paths both aren't initially proficient in. Finally, you might want to change the cost of new paths if you make extensive use of this system.

The main effect of this system as you have presented it is to strengthen *non*-humanoid pretenders by cheapening the paths they start with. The humanoids start with few or no paths and would receive little if any benefit. Non-humanoids would pay a bit more to add extra paths, but I don't think that's good - instead of non-humanoids paying more for added paths, humanoids should pay less.

You could make cost to increase magic paths depend on new path cost based on something like the following:
Pretender with 1-24 new path cost: 6 * level
Pretender with 25-49 new path cost: 7 * level
Pretender with 50+ new path cost: 8 * level (the current cost)
(You could extend this and make pretenders with very high new path cost pay 9 * level, but that makes it more difficult to buy up their starting path, which they're supposed to be good at. Besides, I don't think those pretenders need a nerf, rather, the weak ones need improvement.)

Buying up paths you already have already has a cost discount (instead of level it's (level - starting level) *each time*, which is pretty big), so I don't see a reason to give a second discount on them.

The main beneficiaries of this change would be the humanoids, and to a lesser extent liches and nagas. Most pretenders would be unchanged.

Unfortunately this kind of change isn't moddable - it requires new code. So if Illwinter doesn't think there's a problem with humanoids then this kind of solution can't be done.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Actually I *do* want that. Fat Mama has...

Heck - 'Fat Mama' is supposed to be the very incarnation of Earth and Nature, and you want a mere human to be able to claim her throne without having to work towards it? That doesn't make any sense to me.

If he can't be magically stronger for the same amount of points, or equally strong for less points, what's the point of taking him?

If you, too, think human mages have to be designed like Great Mothers or other titan-size pretenders, then there's indeed absolutely no reason to choose them. But the premise remains false. Mages are all about magic versatility, while the titans are the incarnation of one or 2 facets of the world's magic essence. If you want strong bless effects human mages aren't for you. Live with it.

The main effect of this system as you have presented it is to strengthen *non*-humanoid pretenders by cheapening the paths they start with.

And weakening them by making extra magic paths less affordable. What if I had used 6/8/15 instead of 6/8/10?

I can see absolutely no 'logic' reason why, say, a Great Mother should pay more for Nature magic than a Master Druid. One has to achieve that knowledge thru hard study, while the other is - heck, I suppose she's the very source of that knowledge.

The humanoids start with few or no paths and would receive little if any benefit.

I've no problem with that. OTOH, try to compare a 'titan' and an human with 4 paths @4 - since it seems to be the kind of setup people in this thread try to shoot for - and you'll notice the human is comparatively cheaper with my system than without.

Non-humanoids would pay a bit more to add extra paths, but I don't think that's good

I can't see why.

- instead of non-humanoids paying more for added paths, humanoids should pay less.

Still can't see why, since the effect is the same with few paths (2-3 usually, up to 4 when comparing 2-path 'titans' to 0-path humans), and humans pay comparatively less when you add more. You'd better try to be a bit more argumentative when you want to support your views.

You could make cost to increase magic paths depend on new path cost based on something like the following:

Yep, if you read my previous post again, I suggested that too. To me the ideal solution would be to use a mix of both systems.

Unfortunately this kind of change isn't moddable - it requires new code. So if Illwinter doesn't think there's a problem with humanoids then this kind of solution can't be done.

Yup, but in the meantime it doesn't mean we can't discuss it.

[Cohen]

I've took vision of the Zen's mod.

Great Enchantress is very high for 70 points, even if she has 2S and produce 2 pearls at turn, and is ethereal, she's 9 Hit Points, this means an arrow can easily slay her.

I expected some more for the Great Sage, while the Crone is widely stronger for the same amount of costs. THe difference of stats is insignificant since they're both so low that you cannot really send them in the battle, because they risk arrowing too. But the Crone starts with 2 spell levels, G.S. with none, and the 6 (8-2) points of better research didn't make a true difference, if we consider Crone has also a slightly lesser cost for some spell levels.

I don't understand why Frost Father has 1W1D instead of 2W or 1W1A.

Arch Mage? Left as it was except some better stats? Well at least 1 arrow shouldn't kill him.

Druids are pretty nice.

Didn't checked the Caelumnian Seraph and the other ones. I want back the Abysyan G.Warlock!

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Cohen:
I've took vision of the Zen's mod.

I don't have time for that, but I'm considering it. This whole thread has been very interesting.

I want back the Abysyan G.Warlock!

I thought adding pretenders to a nation was added in as a modding command a patch or two ago... Is this not the case?

[Scott Hebert]

Some very interesting discussion here since I Last posted.

Unfortunately, most of it cannot be modded, and I haven't brought up my thoughts on this and similar subjects because I'm trying to do a mod, not suggest how to change the game.

Something along the non-moddable line I thought would make sense is to tack on the 'path cost' on _each_ level of a new path you bought. You could then reduce the 'path costs' of the humans to 0, and charge 8 points for the first level in each path, just like when buying the first point in a path you already have.

This would _certainly_ make it so that the giants are pigeonholed. You simply couldn't make an Earth Mother with any significant magic outside of Earth and Nature if it cost (80 + 'normal cost') for each level in non-Earth/Nature paths. Maybe 1 Water for Quickness, but that's it.

That may be too restrictive. I don't know. But I do know that I can't mod that currently, so it's just a theory.

On another note, I'm interested in looking at Zen's mod. I also have another project that I'll post on shortly.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Endoperez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cohen:
I want back the Abysyan G.Warlock!

I thought adding pretenders to a nation was added in as a modding command a patch or two ago... Is this not the case?

---

It was. All that's needed to add a pretender choice to a nation should be:

#selectmonster -monsternumber-
#restrictedgod -nationnumber-
#end

In general it does work. However when I tried to give the VQ back to Ermor, it didn't work for Ermor. I haven't tried with the warlock, but if someone knows the monster number for him, I'd be glad to try it.

Otherwise, they could still be added, but would need to be reconstructred, which works for many not-too-complex types, but getting the graphics is a bit of a chore (I have several mods more or less ready but stalled because it takes me hours to get the sprites right).

---

I like the general ability & path-adding/boosting approach of Zen's mod (1W1D would be useful for Frost father since cold and undead go together, though I agree 2W or 1W1A might be more appropriate).

I also like the idea of a code tweak that would mean humans could be better at raising paths they don't start with, without needing to give them all a starting level. Seems like a long shot for IW to agree and code it, though.

Another possible approach would be to increase new path costs for non-humans even farther, but that would reduce the options for non-humans, which might not be good.

PvK

[ June 20, 2004, 19:40: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Scott Hebert]

It was. All that's needed to add a pretender choice to a nation should be:

#selectmonster -monsternumber-
#restrictedgod -nationnumber-
#end

In general it does work. However when I tried to give the VQ back to Ermor, it didn't work for Ermor. I haven't tried with the warlock, but if someone knows the monster number for him, I'd be glad to try it.

According to the ID file, he's 486. Skratti appears to be 500.

Otherwise, they could still be added, but would need to be reconstructred, which works for many not-too-complex types, but getting the graphics is a bit of a chore (I have several mods more or less ready but stalled because it takes me hours to get the sprites right).

The graphics is a problem.

I like the general ability & path-adding/boosting approach of Zen's mod (1W1D would be useful for Frost father since cold and undead go together, though I agree 2W or 1W1A might be more appropriate).

I think the reason he's WD is because he's an Ice Druid, and Ice Druids get WD. I see it as perfectly appropriate that he's WD.

I also like the idea of a code tweak that would mean humans could be better at raising paths they don't start with, without needing to give them all a starting level. Seems like a long shot for IW to agree and code it, though.

It doesn't too hard to code, to be honest. I'm not a programmer, though.

Another option is to vary path costs by the nation you choose. Abysia gets cheap Fire and Blood, but very bad Water, etc.

Another possible approach would be to increase new path costs for non-humans even farther, but that would reduce the options for non-humans, which might not be good.

I personally think that this doesn't really solve the problem, because of the math I originally posted. Now, if the path cost was _cumulative_ (meaning: first new path was pathcost, second new path was 2xpathcost), it would enhance the 'specialist' vs. 'generalist' role that the path cost already serves.

Note: I don't think that the old path costs may be appropriate under this new system.