SCs other than the vq

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zen:
So if they can do the exact same thing under the same circumstances, why is the VQ singled out? Because it's easier?

Because it's noticeable, available, and all the rage right now. If anything, the controversy is fuelling the popularity, to the point where people will pick a VQ even when playing a strategy that is otherwise inappropriate for the VQ. If the furor died out, and it will eventually, it would become a lot less popular...or be supplanted with some new "all the rage" option.

Frankly, the fact that many chassis are unattractive is a far bigger problem than the VQ: If the VQ were eliminated, everyone would simply pick the next closest cousin: the GK, which is in some ways better, especially if you aren't willing to sacrifice as much in the way of national scales. The real problem is that so many other options are overpriced, defective, or otherwise uncompetitive. (See: Moloch's Imps).

[archaeolept]

Oh, so he is a good player and has won with other pretenders? I thought he only used the same thing every time, that was your point I believe.

now you are being intentionally obtuse. Where did I say he only ever used philinnon? Admittedly, I've only seen one game where he used a different pretender, namely a GK.

and, again, that he is a good player does not logically entail that the strat isn't abusive/broken. Both can be, and are, the case.

Anything a VQ can do, any other pretender with the exception of the physically weak ones, can as well. So if they can do the exact same thing under the same circumstances, why is the VQ singled out? Because it's easier?

see, now I just don't even understand what you are talking about. your first statement is obviously false, as the VQ chassis has more inherent abilities than any other chassis. Let alone exactly how you're granting other pretenders immortality...

so, no, they can't do the exact same thing in the same circumstances. and, yes, the VQ is much easier anyways

Originally posted by archaeolept:
see, now I just don't even understand what you are talking about. your first statement is obviously false, as the VQ chassis has more inherent abilities than any other chassis. Let alone exactly how you're granting other pretenders immortality...

so, no, they can't do the exact same thing in the same circumstances. and, yes, the VQ is much easier anyways

In terms of what they do not in terms of what abilities they have. If you don't die you don't need immortality? Immortality just protects you from bad decisions.

And yes, they can provide the same result in the same circumstances. I'm not saying all of them can, but certainly a few can obviously and a few not-so-obviously. Considering the amount of points and planning put into a VQ and put it into something/anything else. If you do so, then perhaps you'll see how.

[archaeolept]

but immortality is the crux of it. As has been noted by everyone, you can kill a VQ, just as you could kill any of these other pretenders w/ a ton of points.

The VQ however, loses nothing from this, except a few baubles.

[ May 04, 2004, 23:07: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Kel]

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

Frankly, the fact that many chassis are unattractive is a far bigger problem than the VQ

Not sure about bigger but yes, that could also use some attention. Since this board seems to have pretty consistent opposing Groups on balance issues(Old Boys Network vs. everyone else), though, it seems unlikely that they will be able to come to much of an agreement on several pretenders.

If the VQ were eliminated, everyone would simply pick the next closest cousin: the GK

I agree that there might be a next most popular one(possibly) but I don't think it would be the GK. But even if it was, that isn't a valid argument on why the VQ might not be popular because she is over-powered. You could make the VQ clearly over-powered, say make her cost 0, 500 hp, and kills all units on sight. In this case, if you removed her, everyone would still choose the next most popular option.

[quote]Originally posted by Zen:

In terms of what they do not in terms of what abilities they have. If you don't die you don't need immortality? Immortality just protects you from bad decisions.

I don't think that's true at all. It allows you to make decisions that would be bad for a non-immortal pretender but become good for an immortal pretender. Immortality isn't just a side-note, it's a major factor. And even if you don't die, the recuperative effects are still useful.

- Kel

[ May 04, 2004, 23:36: Message edited by: Kel ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
but immortality is the crux of it. As has been noted by everyone, you can kill a VQ, just as you could kill any of these other pretenders w/ a ton of points.

The VQ however, loses nothing from this, except a few baubles.

The crux is really her flexibility... of which the immortality is no small part.

Full items slots, a host of natural abilities which lessen the need for scripted spells and/or items, and semi-reasonable path costs.

Though, if you are fully utilizing the item slots, then you shouldn't really be utilizing the immortality... the two sort of oppose each other. That's a lot of gems to waste on a loss... certainly not the equivalent of losing a mortal pretender, but clearly still significant.

The path cost and natural abilities however, mean that she can be quite potent naked... with 5 turns of buffing. An unbuffed and naked VQ is nothing to fear... which would be where flying units come into play.

My admitedly merely moderately experienced self says that raising cost/paths is probably sufficient to bring her back to the pack... though I'd rather see the other pretenders surge forward to catch her... but that's a lot to ask.

EDIT: Oh and Archaeolept, stop posting and upload your pretender up for the game on Moggy's server!

[ May 04, 2004, 23:48: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Originally posted by Kel:
Not sure about bigger but yes, that could also use some attention. Since this board seems to have pretty consistent opposing Groups on balance issues(Old Boys Network vs. everyone else), though, it seems unlikely that they will be able to come to much of an agreement on several pretenders.

From the Polls, there is a different consensus. Or the Old Boy's Network is huge. Anyone remember the first Clam Poll? Most probably don't see it as an issue because it's only the most vocal of wheels that need things 'answered' and 'right now!'.

Originally posted by Zen:
I don't think that's true at all. It allows you to make decisions that would be bad for a non-immortal pretender but become good for an immortal pretender. Immortality isn't just a side-note, it's a major factor. And even if you don't die, the recuperative effects are still useful.

Yes, that just means you have your safety blanket for any mistakes you make. It's not a side note, if you are prone to either A.) Mistakes or B.) Being surprised. So if you are more likely to not meet those conditions than likely a non-immortal pretender will work in nearly any situation that an immortal one will. Where Immortality shines is in defense, making people pay a larger attrition per province taken inside your dominion. Since at least a percentage of people prefer the "Defense, defense, defense" mentality this molds well with how they think and how they play.

[PvK]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
... My admitedly merely moderately experienced self says that raising cost/paths is probably sufficient to bring her back to the pack...
...

That's my feeling too, after wading through most or all of these discussions. I'm liking the 80-point new path cost suggestion at the moment.

PvK

[PvK]

How about these ideas?

* Fighting fire with fires. Vampire Lords (?) seem similar but a bit better than VQ's. They also can summon vampires. This is a blood spell, or national spell for Black Forest Ulm. So... if I am BF Ulm or my pretender or national mages have some blood power, at least by mid game once I can cast summon some Vampire Lords, I am thinking the solitary VQ is going to be in trouble, no?

* Priest army. How ofter does a Holy-2 Banish spell hurt a VQ? Even if never, suppose I have some potential vampire-defeating units of some other type. I put them with an army as bait for the VQ to come try to get me, near the edge of her dominion. The surprise is, my mob of priests is that turn Preaching. If I have them, I have Skeptics, Inquisitors, or dominion-draining items in the army. Result: VQ arrives, gets killed, and oops - her dominion was unexpectedly sucked dry in the same turn. So no ressurrection. Or does the sequence of play not allow this to work?

PvK

[ May 05, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: PvK ]

Originally posted by PvK:
How about these ideas?

* Fighting fire with fires. Vampire Lords (?) seem similar but a bit better than VQ's. They also can summon vampires. This is a blood spell, or national spell for Black Forest Ulm. So... if I am BF Ulm or my pretender or national mages have some blood power, at least by mid game once I can cast summon some Vampire Lords, I am thinking the solitary VQ is going to be in trouble, no?

The factors here are that Vampire Lords don't start with magic in the right spheres. I'm pretty sure every "VQ is overpowered OMG!" debater will mention that you need a few key magics to really make the VQ shine. Notably Air/Water at the very least. Second portion is that you are forgetting the Dominion bonus of HP which the Lords do not gain.

* Priest army. How ofter does a Holy-2 Banish spell hurt a VQ? Even if never, suppose I have some potential vampire-defeating units of some other type. I put them with an army as bait for the VQ to come try to get me, near the edge of her dominion. The surprise is, my mob of priests is that turn Preaching. If I have them, I have Skeptics, Inquisitors, or dominion-draining items in the army. Result: VQ arrives, gets killed, and oops - her dominion was unexpectedly sucked dry in the same turn. So no ressurrection. Or does the sequence of play not allow this to work?

PvK

This works and is an easy way to bait a VQ player into dropping their SC on you mistakenly and suddenly all those precious points vanish. Though this in and of itself can be a little bit of chore. When combined with the Castle and Temple Strategy with 10 Dominion you are going to have a bit of an issue dumping down the dominion fast enough unless you have a truly mammoth amount of Holy 3 Priests or Cerimonial Faith

[ May 05, 2004, 00:29: Message edited by: Zen ]