MP Asia Twist - Wraithlord Wins! - Page 56

WraithLord · #**551** September 17th, 2009, 10:06 AM

zlefin, I have presented my side many times. Can you even suspect how tired I am of this ongoing tirade? The bottom lime is that I won the game. I have broken no house rules or any other rules for that matter. I took all the VPs I needed for victory and didn't threaten/bribe/presaude anyone to do anything. I had the strongest army in the block. I won. period.

I absolutely object to your tribunal suggestion and am deeply offended by it. You're basically implying that I should be treated like a criminal. This is preposterous.

ok. If this onslaught on me from the making of Arcahe doesn't come to an end one way or another I shall be saying my ultimate goodbyes to these forums.
I have a life and no game or community, however fun it may be is worth going through all that abuse.

WraithLord · #**552** September 17th, 2009, 10:08 AM

Thank you Squirrelloid. I appreciate your candor and frankly am refreshed for hearing something different after all that spam aimed at me these last few days.

Squirrelloid · #**553** September 17th, 2009, 10:09 AM

@Don re:gem gifts

The problem is that either (1) you are not the #3 nation (certainly not all of those gifting gems to Archae could be), or (2) you are hurting your chances of winning by gifting to the 2nd player (because that's material you're going to need if they 'wipe themselves out'). One might also wonder if two leading nations that late in the game are even capable of wiping one another out such that a nation can come from behind and win - playing for a totally unreasonable expectation isn't very rational. The game is really stacked against come-from-behind wins during late game, because the effect of superior income (in gold and gems) is cumulative, often over a large number of turns. I'm not going to say they don't happen, but I'd be surprised.

(Obviously there are probably games in which there were 3 or 4 competing nations even late in the game, but they certainly aren't going to be gifting to their rivals because they'll take themselves out of competition).

DonCorazon · #**554** September 17th, 2009, 10:17 AM

Squirrelloid- the only major gift I gave Archae came after Wraith essentially declared himself the winner here, after he misinterpreted one of Archae's posts. I don't feel like looking through the threads, but a few pages back Wraith, in my mind, essentially put his cards on the table.

As I said, my gift was to create balance. I like both Wraith and Archae and didn't care who won. I thought Wraith had more resources and wanted to create an even fight. And in general gifting gems can be strategic. And I have RL reasons as to why I had to limit my push for victory in this game but gifting gems to help ensure a prolonged painful mutually destructive war is a good use of them. If the #2 player can put them to work and damage the #1 player better than I can, and it frees up my own mages to do research and forge, why is that not strategically superior to hording my gems, while the #1 player cleans up the game?

DonCorazon · #**555** September 17th, 2009, 10:19 AM

PS I don't want to add fuel to the fire. I'd be very sad to see Wraith vanish from these boards.

Executor · #**556** September 17th, 2009, 10:25 AM

I think you both need to calm down. I've been following your posts and frankly I'm getting tired of it myself.

Bottom line, as much I dislike the way in which WL won myself, and think of it as unworthy of a HoFer, there is unfortunately nothing that prevents someone from winning a game in such a way.
Maybe WL would have won in the long run anyway, maybe he wouldn't have, but the victory conditions have been achieved and that is that, the end.

Arch, you feel you've been cheated from a win, what can I way, it happens, it happened to others, it happened to me too, and more than once but you move on.

I see no point in you two arguing any more, nothing good can come of it, and nothing good can come from people fueling it up either.

Squirrelloid · #**557** September 17th, 2009, 10:34 AM

@Don:
Look, ultimately Archae's claim stems from the fact that he feels the win was 'unfair'. However, isn't it also 'unfair' that he received massive aid from other powers which WL was not privy to? If games are supposed to be 'fair' (that is, your chance of winning is determined solely by your actions during the game), then no collusion between players should be allowed at all. What did Archae do to *earn* those 1500 gems? Nothing.

Clearly a diplomatic game is all about managing unfairness, not about the game being fair. Diplomacy itself is inherently unfair. Fighting 2 on 1 is unfair. Its also strategically good sense. Strategy is all about never fighting fair.

I'm not arguing you shouldn't be able to dispose of your gems as you like, I'm arguing that a standard which prevents disposal of your VP in a manner you decide also prohibits disposal of any resources in ways that don't involve you benefiting directly thereby (eg, only permits trade or direct expenditure).

Edit: Anyway, this is my last post on the topic. You're not going to sway me that passing free gems is any different in kind than passing VPs. I'm not saying those are unacceptable, I'm saying that they ultimately have the same ends. (You could pass a VP to make the game more even too - say so the two leaders were tied for VP). I think any agreement between two players that's allowed by the game engine is permissible, and that WL's win is a win by diplomacy and a superior strategy.

DonCorazon · #**558** September 17th, 2009, 10:41 AM

Ok squirreloid, I am not going to sway you. Bye bye

archaeolept · #**559** September 17th, 2009, 10:47 AM

Exec: I wouldn't say I was cheated from a win, but it was a huge and fascinating end-game situation, the result of hundreds of hours of play. Is this the way you would want similar games to end in the future? I would say "cheap" not "cheat", if pressed.

Of course I didn't take this silently... that is not my way

Then I have been accused of lies and slander as part of some obfuscatory tactics. I don't believe anything I have said about the facts of the situation is wrong, though it is quite understandable that some people might not like my manner of presentation.

There is not, however, I think a really good manner to have presented our disagreement.

Anyways, I'm under official warning as to how to talk about this, so I find it difficult to put my opinions more precisely. I think a thread on the issue in general could be interesting and productive, though it would probably have to try and be careful talking about any of the specifics of this case.

I've lost enough games - sometimes things get heated, but I've never felt the other wins were illegitimate in some way. Other than my many games losing to Norfleet, that is.

archaeolept · #**560** September 17th, 2009, 10:58 AM

as to the ~1300 gems - the numbers may seem huge to those unfamiliar w/ Dominions end-games, but that was probably equivalent to 3 turns income (after gem-gens and wish). My losses defending caelum would have been equivalent to most of that, I would guess.

edit: let me take this occasion to pimp the new CBM which has basically done away w/ all gem generators. praise be to allah!