Night of the Long Knives?

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Ragnarok-X

I feel like sombre is trying to force Shrapnel into granting him free passage, like THEY should ask him to please return. That is wrong.

No. He's not asking for anything. Other members of the community are. There is a certain distinction there.

[Maerlande]

Yes. Sombre does not want to come back. And he in no way influenced my efforts on his behalf. I did it entirely on my own based upon what I believe is good for Dominions 3 and playing this great game.

I come here to play dominions 3. Side effects are to make friends, have fun, and enjoy lively conversation. It wouldn't matter in the least to me if this was a vicious forum full of infighting. IRC is exactly that. Pure anarchy and I love it.

So all that matters about this forum is the ability to play Dominions 3. I've checked out some other forums and while they have strong Dominions 3 communities they stink for other reasons. Mainly, they don't have the top quality fan made content that exists here: guides, strategy discussion, mods, maps etc.

This forum has one key advantage: It's better organized. But when the quality of play for Dominions 3 here drops too low I won't bother coming here.

[Sicaire]

does anyone seriously think banning this guy does any good to the community, or to the game, to the forums or to anyone around?
is the main point of the rules to make sure that rules are properly enforced as per the HOLY TERMS OF USE? ooooooh man he said he would not abide by the RUUUULES! this is soooo evil it threatens the SYSTEM!
man this is soooo "legal" we're talking about a GAME (remember this is supposed to be FUN?) forum you bloody losers
DO YOU REALISE YOU ACTUALLY MADE THIS PLACE A POORER SADDER PLACE just by bringing this debate in? for what gain?
just set your damn ego aside moderators, invite the guy back and if he's smart somehow he wont boast about it and we can start PLAYING again and forgetting this whole sad story!

[Swan]

Originally Posted by Sicaire

does anyone seriously think banning this guy does any good to the community, or to the game, to the forums or to anyone around?
is the main point of the rules to make sure that rules are properly enforced as per the HOLY TERMS OF USE? ooooooh man he said he would not abide by the RUUUULES! this is soooo evil it threatens the SYSTEM!
man this is soooo "legal" we're talking about a GAME (remember this is supposed to be FUN?) forum you bloody losers
DO YOU REALISE YOU ACTUALLY MADE THIS PLACE A POORER SADDER PLACE just by bringing this debate in? for what gain?
just set your damn ego aside moderators, invite the guy back and if he's smart somehow he wont boast about it and we can start PLAYING again and forgetting this whole sad story!

This is the right way to close this topic.
Caps lock is shouting, and this is bad karma.
There are rules, you accepted them when you wrote here, calling the mods loosers is not going to fix anything.
Now, calm down and say something interesting or shut up.

[Peacekeeper]

Originally Posted by Annette

Maer,

I greatly appreciate your productive post. You are correct - while these forums are not a profit center for Shrapnel Games, they do exist as a sales tool. Two very important components of the tool are our customers who contribute valuable content and our moderators who volunteer their time to help us maintain a peaceful, productive environment. Without their unpaid help, Shrapnel Games would have a difficult time keeping these forums open for our customers' use.

We all understand that tempers will flare and posts will be made that violate the rules we've put in place. And we appreciate cooperation when a moderator must step in to calm things down. The problem in this situation, and the reason I exercised our right to escalate beyond our infraction system, is that Sombre indicated to us that he did not intend to honor our requests to follow the standards we expect of all our users and that he would ignore future private messages asking him to refrain from using personal attacks. Would a temporary ban change his mind? So we're faced with the question, do we allow one user to post in a manner that we would not tolerate from anyone else?

you handled this poorly. Be big enough to admit it and move on.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by Quitti

No. He's not asking for anything. Other members of the community are. There is a certain distinction there.

True. He's refusing to do something (refrain from attacking others). Some members of the community are defending him and asking for either a temporary ban before a permanent one or that he just be allowed to ignore forum rules.

As far as him not being given a temporary ban first, I can see the grounds for that objection - if he was willing to following the rules going forward. But Sombre was forthright that he wouldn't comply with Shrapnel's request so I'm not sure there's much point in postponing things.

The idea that he should be allowed to ignore the forum rules is in my opinion obviously a bad idea. Either you make an exception for him or you drop the rules completely for everyone. I don't think either of those two is a good idea (though the first one is worse). Maerlande mentions that IRC is anarchy. That's great; I'm glad people enjoy it. But I don't think the Shrapnel forums have to be the same - having two different arenas with different standards is a good thing.

Look, I understand that people are defending Sombre both because they're friends with him and because they value his contributions to the community and feel they outweigh any negatives. But people place different value on different things. Some people value a friendly community more than they do a huge availability of mods. And it's not an invalid point of view.

Also, some people dislike Shrapnel (not sure why since they seem like a decent company to me) but you can't possibly imagine they wanted this. I think they put this off precisely because it's a no-win situation for them.

This is a situation of Sombre's creation and it's his choice whether or not to resolve it. My guess is all he has to do is refrain from attacking people. So there's some people who really annoy him. Just ignore them and interact with the people you like. It doesn't seem like too much to ask. It's unfair, to say the least, to put all the burden on Shrapnel and ask nothing of him.

[Sicaire]

i think for most forums users this was just a non event up to the point when they felt obliged to ban him.
Sombre has been on the forums for years and I dont think anyone can say the forum have not been a mostly courteous place. I dont think either he suddenly turned into a rampaging troll threatening the forums integrity when he answered he would not abide by the rules. The question was pointless and the answer somehow inappropriate as well certainly.
This is a great example of using a vastly inadequate response force against a blatantly dismissable offense.

@Swan: I get your point and actually regret making the harsh statement.

[Squirrelloid]

For the Record: Sombre never said he would not abide by the rules. He disparaged the -10 point penalty for the initial offense as meaningless. To whit:

"-10 points oh noes"
'[the penalty] means as much to me as forgetting to buy milk at the grocery store.'

(second one paraphrased because i'm going off memory)

Neither of these constitutes guilt denial of violating the rules or a refusal to follow the rules. What they do is deny that penalty (as applied following the mod rules) was something he really needed to take seriously. Pretending Sombre said he refused to follow the rules is shameful and wrong.

If Sombre's disdain for the penalty had gone on to cause further incidents and appropriate responses, leading up to a full ban, so be it. But it didn't, he was banned summarily merely for stating how he felt about the 'punishment'. Thoughtcrime is doubleplus ungood citizens.

[Sicaire]

aha moderator of lies thou art forsworn! answer this or thou shall be banned to Kokytos (in summer) and Inferno (in winter).

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Valerius

But Sombre was forthright that he wouldn't comply with Shrapnel's request so I'm not sure there's much point in postponing things.

Under the current rules I'm not entirely sure that a permaban would have happened eventually. The infractions are designed to go away after a while. Sombre just said he didn't care, he thought the whole system was a joke, and part of a powertrip by the mods. (As he explained on IRC). That he was banned only proves his point.

Originally Posted by Valerius

The idea that he should be allowed to ignore the forum rules is in my opinion obviously a bad idea. Either you make an exception for him or you drop the rules completely for everyone.

True. Why then the exception for Sombre? No tempbans, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

Originally Posted by Valerius

Look, I understand that people are defending Sombre both because they're friends with him and because they value his contributions to the community and feel they outweigh any negatives.

You are forgetting one reason. Defending him because he is right. He should not have been banned and it was part of a powertrip. (Not saying that I agree with this, but it is a valid reason).