The First Mega Game International Bank

[chrispedersen]

Hey guys!

First, ya either trust your opponents to be honorable - or you don't. And if ya don't - why play? Specifically, that people are not playing as friends.

I've never met, nor played with, any of the fine gentleman alluded to in the previous post. I mean honestly, if I had a secret agenda - why would we post it? Much more logical to keep it secret, isn't it?

Secondly, how can anyone complain about an organization that anyone can join?

Now I've gotten a pm about pregame alliances being distasteful - and indeed some here have made a post about that. And I would like to prompt discussion on that point.

To me, a pregame alliance - is going into the game with a hidden agenda - working with people you know - a hidden advantage that is unfair.

To which I'd like to bring up for discussion a few points:
Haven't nations been assigned, aren't we designing pretenders, refreshing ourselves on the abilities of our nation? I know I am. In short - aren't we already playing the game?

How does diplomacy at this instant.. vary one whit.. from diplomacy conducted once we receive our starting positions? How is it any more or less fair?

Secondly, I think the unfairness of this, if it exists which I don't think it does, is FAR dwarfed by 'diplomacy' already inherent in the game. For example, can any of you, but especially the veterans, say that you honestly wouldn't think twice about attacking Baalz - just because he *IS* a veteran - especially if you have another possible target? And I have a suspicion that as a new player I have similarly been targeted.

Similarly, aren't there some nations that are known weak, that you would look hungrily upon? For fire nations, aren't you less likely to attack other fire nations? How about who *your* neighbors are?

Aren't these factors likely to be much determinative of game behavior?

Now some have said:

"Pregame alliances are bad. Lets form an alliance to oppose these evil bankers."

Now in-game, I think thats all kosher and in fact good fun. Out-of-game I have to question both your logic - and the firmness of your convictions.

Lastly, I love to compete, and I love to play, and diplomacize. I find reading about the bank, and AntiBank, and the Bank of Ulm, and setting up D.I.C.E - fun. But I'd really hate for their to be hard feelings out-of-game because of it.

So what do *you* think?

[AreaOfEffect]

Thank you chrispedersen, I was starting to become quite jaded by the discussion up until this point. Clearly what I thought was a dialog was instead a conversation with a wall.

As for what I think, I think that I've tried my best to listen to everyone's opinion and revise accordingly. I think the actual discussion is being overshadowed by 'pre-game alliance'. A set of words that haven't been defined, is disliked without reasons provided, and doesn't distinguish itself from any other alliance aside from it's timing.

Is an alliance that develops prior to the start of the game an unfair advantage. Yes. However, so is every other alliance ever concocted. It is in the nature of an alliance to be unfair, not it's timing. Any two nations teaming up to fight individual nations is of course an advantage to the allied nations. That's why people form alliances in the first place, to gain an advantage. Besides, chrispedersen brings up an interesting point, the game has in actuality started. I would even go so far as to say that this is the weakest alliance I could create, as I'm not even sure members could help me if I needed them to. Alliances or more effective with more knowledge, not the other way around.

That said, I don't think that the nature of both me and another player being executives is indeed a pre-game alliance. I simply don't think I could administer what I propose all on my own. Unoptimized is an executive because I think I can trust him to do the job and because he has more frequent access to the internet then me. I'm sure he won't mind if anyone of you want to take his place. I created the email address so that I could move the responsibility to other players. Had I wanted to job exclusively, I would have just used personal messages as the means of communication.

In closing, I honestly don't think most of you even know why your clamoring about. I've already stated my purpose from the onset. I understand the possibility of abuse, but as far as I can see, it is simply whether a person keeps their money or instead gets to give it away for the promise of interest. Or that I might deny curtain players from obtaining a loan, but that just means that they deal with what they have, just like a player normally would. There is a lot more to be gained in my opinion. The fact that I'm willing to renominate executives should settle the last of your worries, and yes I would gladly give up my position as well if it meant that we could have some level of insurance.

Thank you and good luck to us all.

[Kristoffer O]

Yomi is a strong supporter of any banking industry that uses paper money.

[Darkwind]

If the customer wants, Ulm shall supply! There shall be enough paper money that it'll be cheaper to burn it than buy wood!

Also, about the pre-game alliance stuff, well, other people have said it better than I could (probably because I was waiting for someone to win the debate and hoping I wouldn't have to close shop before shop opened). And it's nice to know that I have a fan

Although about 'refreshing ourselves on the abilities of our nation', since I've only played Ulm in the Dominions II demo, I've got practically no idea what to expect mid- and late-game. That argument doesn't necessarily apply to new people.

[Kristoffer O]

@AoE (and other bankers):

I saw that you've got a third member in your bank. Given the sentiments on some players regarding pre-game-start alliances I think it might be wise to wait with applications on membership until the game starts.

I like the metagaming idea of the bank, and it might be nice to know the dynamics and organization of it before the game starts, but since the game has not officially started yet it might be best if you waited with the in-game stuff, membership etc until the game actually starts.

That way I don't think anyone will have anything against the idea.


A bit off topic: I once played a fantasy PBEM game with 12 players. It went well. I defeated a neighbour or two, as did some other players. I ended up in an alliance with two other players pretty early on. Probably because we were the ones that communicated at all. We ended up in a war with another strong player and suddenly the game ended !?! All small nations and dropouts had been defeated and the strongest player had joined our alliance and game mechanics ended the game. Most annoying. One reason I dislike built in diplomacy

Why do I mention this? If there is a big alliance before the game starts and everyone likes to be in, there is no need for war, and no one dares to be left out. Thus all live in a happy democratic banking environ. Thus better to start banks etc when the game has started and a few alliances and grudges build up regardless of meta gaming policies.

[chrispedersen]

Ok.. well with that .. I'll think I'll just back off and concentrate on D.I.C.E.

Does anyone have comment on whether prices are in the ballpark?

[atul]

A bit cheap maybe, but it really depends on the situation. Usually in the beginning gems aren't worth much but later on the going price does increase considerably.

If you're planning on stocking on each gem in order to facilitate a working DICE, good luck. But wouldn't it be easier for two parties just to agree on exchange with a middle price, thus saving money and cutting you off?

I personally felt the market thread of Perpetuality worked quite well with exchange economy. Yet if people insist on bringing capitalist market devices in essentially non-capitalist environment, feel free to prove me wrong.

[Darkwind]

As Kingmaker has started, I'll give out a bit more info regarding the Bank of Ulm.

The Bank of Ulm will (probably) be closed until the beginning of year two, at which point Ulm will (probably) donate 500 gold and perhaps 10 or so gems to the BoU. As no one wants someone taking all of the Bank's precious gold and gems, the bankers will refuse some offers for loans if they think it outrageous.

Also, the Bank has set up a prestigious organization which any nation can join, the Favored Customers of Ulm. For a measly donation of 100+50*years-after-bank-opened gold and 1+.5*years-after-bank-opened gems of any type to the Bank of Ulm, any nation can become a Favored Customer of Ulm for twelve full months, or one year! With this comes an as-yet-undisclosed discount on gem and/or gold interest rates and an as-yet-undisclosed discount on items hot off the forges of Ulm, Forges of Ulm! The Guild of Bankers of Ulm would like to thank Monny, god of Ulm, for his participation in FCoU, and all of its future customers for trying the services they offer.