Artillery

[Charles22]

Have you considered the high-velocity issue too? Because I would assume the vast majority of the modern or semi-modern systems see a much higher proportion of high-velocity, therefore making the shot much surer with or without any optics.

Also, please consider that you said "experienced gunner" as there's a great many of these nations that aren't using those sort of gunners at various times. Get a Panther out there with an experienced gunner (what, a guy with experience in the 80's?) and I think you'll usually egt them by the 3rd shot in not too far a distance. Also, remember the game is just giving percentages, so for every decent tank that misses the first 6 shots, you may have another that hits the first time, which would average what you're saying the average gunner could do.

[DRG]

dwmalesevich said:
<snip>
What I do not like comes from over 2500 main gun rounds fired out my tanks. I do know tank gunnery.

After the 1st round is fired any competent gunner should be able to hit the target by the 2nd at latest 3rd round fired. Once you have hit the target the largest problem is solved (determining range) From then on you should be able to continue to hit the target as long as the err budget doesn't cause you to miss. In game turms once you hit you should probobly get a 15-20% bonus for contiued hits on the same target or any target within 2 hexes of the original target.

OK.... do you have any examples of what you are unhappy with exactly becasue if I take a tank with an experienced gunner in this game and fire it at a target it will almost certainly hit and kill that target in three shots. ( assuming the gun has the penetration to kill ). Set up a test sceanrio and show me the problem. Give the gunner 95 experience

dwmalesevich said:
Secondly I do not like the way that each tank will fire all of its weapons at the same target even if there is no chance of target damage. I would really like to see the possibilty of multipule engagements ie(engaging 2 or more targets with 2 or more weapons systems) In game turms this means putting the gunner on to a main gun or mg target and then letting the TC fire his 50 at a different target. The bow gunner should always engage the closest infantry in his line of sight.

I realize that I have rambled here. I'm sorry.

In conclusion please do not think that I don't like what you guys have done because I realy apprciate your hard work.

Dave Malesevich
SFC USA-Ret 19K4HA7

Point 2 I'm almost 100% certain you are never going to see the way you describle it. The tank may switch targets but having the turret engage one target and the hull MG engage another is very, very unlikely to happen

Don

[Mobhack]

The game system uses a 3 shot ladder for most weapons (exeptions are infantry small arms and missiles mainly).

Roughly speaking, first shot at a target is 1/3 the chance, second 2/3 and third (and subsequent) at full to-hit chance.

And I changed the code in MBT for laser range finders (20+) to a 2-stage ladder, if within a certain multiplier of the RF number, which I cannot recall ATM - may be 1.5 .

The Fire Control and Range Finder, and other factors also produce limitations, so if you have a shot that goes say 25% and then sticks on say 50% for subsequent shots, then you have reached some sort of limitation (FC, range finder, or movement (yours or target) etc).

Personally, I do not really like the SP "formula based" sytem. If I were ever to do my own engine from scratch, it would be a system based like all good tabletop wargames, on tables. Same for target effect. For an example - see any of the WRG or TTG wargames rule sets. So - a to-hit table for each gun/ammo combination, and an effect table for each ammo type, with columns for 0-50, 51-100 etc, and line items for adjustment factors (Target in woods, -20, and so on). Tables can be published easily, formulae would need the end user to scrabble through thousands of lines of C code. Tables are also easier for the programmer to debug too, as you can make an educated guess on what some adjustment would do to hit chance or kill chance, otherwise you have to debug thousands of lines of C, calling various subroutines and so on.

This game system has no "I have hit the target" modifier either, unlike say the WRG 1950-2000 system. Just number of shots fired on target which gets reset if you change to a new one.

The other problem with the SSI formula-based system is that it uses one set of numbers and then tries to fit this into various entirely different types/modes of fire (AA, HE, AP, missile) etc.

It probably made sense back in 1990 or so, when PCs were so limited in storage both disk and RAM, that a few bytes shaved here or there allowed an extra 100 units. And individual tables for each weapon would be a bad case there as well. The limitation to HEAT and sabot for weapon 1 is likely from there - my guess is there was only HE and AP, and someone added that at the last minute. And instead of extending the original array of ammo for each weapon slot, (ammo[slot][2] to ammo [slot][4]) they were tacked on as single bytes in the weapon data, and then in order to fit HEAT weapons in slots not #0 the "222 kludge" came in, which would not have been needed if the extra 2 ammo type slots had been added to the ammo array in the first place. But back then, 6 more bytes of storage (times N units) was probably important due to the limited memory. After all - when PBEM replay was added then you had to have a PC with extended memory and at least 4MB (?) of RAM, which back then was considered huge .

So - all likely inherited limitations from the original target system, i.e. a 1MB or so RAM PC (486 processor, if lucky).

Cheers
Andy

NB - WRG have published the old out of print "Infantry Action" rules on-line here WRG 1925-75 Rules - a good use for you 1/72 Airfix figures, or an excuse to get a few boxes

And for a typical "table based" approach rather than formulas see the infantry results table of the above Anti Personell table

[pdoktar]

Does WinSPWW2 use the same code calculating artillery damage as WinSPMBT? And if you developers are now looking into it, does this mean there are these same problems also in WinSPMBT?

[JaM]

I'm playing WinSPMBT quite often and i dont have problem with too many artilery kills. But its true, that MBTs top armor is much higher than ww2 tanks have...

[dwmalesevich]

Andy,

What I think would help is if the hit percentage went up for the target in the hex with each shot when you hit the target you get a 15-20% boost for the next round fired at that target or any target within 1 hex. In real life the hardest part of the early tanker was getting the range right. Once you have hit the target you have the range. If you are using a balistic reticle all you have to do is put the same range line on the target again. Again in real life once you hit a target you can engage any target withing 200 meters using the same range and the superelevation of the gun will be close enough to enable a hit. In the game with WWII ammunition I would say to restrict it to a one hex distance. Targets in the same hex should recieve the same percentaage with the extra 15-20%. I don't know if this is doable but I feel it would improve the game.

Please don't think that I don't like what you guys have done because Win SPWWII and MBT are probobly my two favorite games. When I was on active duty on tanks every day my computer gaming was Harpoon. I saw enough of tanks every day.


Dave Malesevich

[Marek_Tucan]

Back on topic, just played a Germany vs. Czechoslovakia meeting in 1938, with rather huge forces on a 60x60 map. My enemy didn't use his arty properly but my 105mm and 75mm guns as well as 75mm mortars were blazing away rather permanently... And I haven't noticed any problems with too much kills. IIRC the arty destryed one vz.33 tankette and two armoured cars, the rest of Czechoslovakian tank force fell prey to my 88's and Panzers. So I don't think the light arty is as dreadful killer as someone here suggested.

EDIT: against soft vehicles it was a completely different matter, as it should be. His motor inf. in trucks got slaughtered, esp. as he moved them in tight groups - one of such groups got almost completely destroyed in one turn by splash damage of Panzer IV's 75mm shells.

[Charles22]

Marek_Tucan said:
Back on topic, just played a Germany vs. Czechoslovakia meeting in 1938, with rather huge forces on a 60x60 map. My enemy didn't use his arty properly but my 105mm and 75mm guns as well as 75mm mortars were blazing away rather permanently... And I haven't noticed any problems with too much kills. IIRC the arty destryed one vz.33 tankette and two armoured cars, the rest of Czechoslovakian tank force fell prey to my 88's and Panzers. So I don't think the light arty is as dreadful killer as someone here suggested.

EDIT: against soft vehicles it was a completely different matter, as it should be. His motor inf. in trucks got slaughtered, esp. as he moved them in tight groups - one of such groups got almost completely destroyed in one turn by splash damage of Panzer IV's 75mm shells.

I think you get results more indicative of what we have been talking about if it is 'your' AFV's that are being bombarded. Try bunching up maybe 15-20 at various places on a road, and let him see you and blaze away, and see what happens. If all you got was 3 AFV's then you either weren't bombarding where they were, or he basically didn't have very many. Try what I said and just out of that one group, 75mm's alone will do in twice what you saw in your game. I had about 35-40 tanks altogether and probably lost 6 of them to those mere 75's in that type of situation I described (not to count all the SPAA's, HT's, and AC's those things killed). I think I only had one HT out of all of that which survived with a track hit, as most of the hits were either bounces or kills. I was playing the Germans as the assaulting side BTW and I had to slow my attack down more than I would have liked due to the likelihood of mines in the vicinity. He didn't need mines when 75's hit like that and I got that salvo for approximately 2-3 turns before it died out for some reason.

His side (Polish) had either 12 or 16 75mmm guns. Not s great deal by any means. At least half of those were onboard or I would had really been in trouble.

[Marek_Tucan]

Charles22 said:
If all you got was 3 AFV's then you either weren't bombarding where they were, or he basically didn't have very many.

In that specific place he had circa 6 LT-35's and three vz.33's in one spot, in neighboring hexes. Got two 75mm and one 105mm battery on him for about 6 turns and got just that one tankette. The two armoured cars were on a different spot, both got by one 75mm battery salvo.
Oh damn me! Totally forgot to mention we got the Arm toughness set to 150% (my preferred setting). So maybe that was the cause.

[Charles22]

It's good you caught that. Another primary difference also: you were bombarding with very little over a more extended period, at least compared to what happened to me. I had like 12-16 guns bearing down for three straight turns. The only thing that saved several of them was that they routed out of the bombardment zone.