Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[Bat/man]

Well, in the other thread on Agartha I was pretty hardily lampooned.

I made the notes that the boulder throwers are very good.
Personally, I *like* the changes.

Is Agartha overpowered. Perhaps, although I never thought I'd say that. I really like the feel of the national buff (song of the mournful?)

I think the upcoming change to PD might be sufficient, to make them a simply relatively balance, interesting race to play. Agartha under CBM 1.9 can definitely surprise people. I think the idea of darkness is great, and I think your new proposal to implement it is good llama.

Mitigating against the stone throwers: you can take an AWEFUL lot of friendly fire casualties unless you find one of various ways to avoid.



[Aside: As an interesting mechanic, llama: I think the capital (and perhaps other cave citadels) should spawn darkness always.
Perhaps the way to do this is a free unit spawn (high protection, high mr, no slots, no movement, and diseased with 1 hp). Have this unit free cast darkness?

This way agartha would have darkness in its capitols (caves?) and yet could not move these units out to achieve darkness in other areas (as they die).]

[decourcy]

Admiral Aorta, Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I don't want to start another fight, but if one more person on these forums sticks their nose in the air about SP entire populations of cicadas are going to disappear into this forum. Quit being snobs, it is uncool.

Aorta, SP is quite valuable because i can set up identical starting situations and see how one race does compared to another both in ease of expansion vs indeps, and in winning the game vs the ai players.

Also, another person said there is no hope for Agartha grenade throwers vs cavalry due to lack of armour... um, go one more space in their build list and build that unit, it is the grenade thrower with armour.

Again, i ran a test Agartha vs Helheim with me playing both, and Helheim certainly fared better than Tir but i was able to keep a positive ratio of gold cost of lost units vs Helheim as Agartha. Blessed 30 defense, glamored units die from 1 boulder.

[Redeyes]

Originally Posted by decourcy

Admiral Aorta, Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I don't want to start another fight, but if one more person on these forums sticks their nose in the air about SP entire populations of cicadas are going to disappear into this forum. Quit being snobs, it is uncool.

Just please don't ask that CBM be balanced around SP in any form. It is directly counterproductive towards CBM's role and function.

Attempting to deal with the stone hurlers using high defense troops is always going to be a failing prospect, ranged weapons never care about the target's defense. This won't, and can't, be changed.

Using the worst possible matchup for a unit as a direct means of balancing it doesn't work.

[GFSnl]

I think I should just add that I think Single player is not a very good measurement for Value.

Single player is not like multi player. It's much different.

Just my two cents.

[llamabeast]

They're not being snobbish. I'm sorry if you feel people are being rude - it's just that there's a many-year history of new players turning up and saying that some aspect of the game is broken and massively OP. It's the nature of dom3 - it's absolutely full of such things, but skilled players can counter all of them. So there is a tendency, when a new player comes along with such a statement, to assume it's another such case. And in that case the real answer is "sorry, the reason you think it's OP is because you're a new player, and in a year or so you won't think so". That's very rude I know, which is why I haven't previously said it explicitly, but having been on the forum almost six years it's hard not to think it.

Now, of course it could also be that you're absolutely right about the boulder throwers, and you have indeed sparked a debate on the other forum on the issue. Maybe I will make some changes and I appreciate you bringing the matter up.

On the other hand there are warning signs in the way you post which are causing people to doubt the worth of your points: you're quite aggressive, and you quote SP results (which frankly are worth nothing apart from the initial expansion against indies, where obviously they are useful), and you seem to be think that the OP nature of one unit might make CBM less balanced than vanilla. We could point out *many* units which are massively unbalanced in vanilla. I'm not claiming CBM is perfect and many players do prefer vanilla, which is fine of course. But still, Agarthan hurlers are definitely not huge in the grand scheme of things.

As for SP results being worthless: I can see that's annoying, but again there are very many units which are effectively invincible in SP. Equip and script an Eriu thug properly and he will live forever and kill thousands of AI troops. Lots of nations have powerful sacreds which properly blessed can wipe out AI nations without casualties. However these things are not OP because in multiplayer other players could handily counter them.

[Executor]

I`ll second what Llama said. Especially the sp part. Any testing done in sp means very little to nothing in mp, I think every vet is going to agree on this.

Originally Posted by decourcy

Also, another person said there is no hope for Agartha grenade throwers vs cavalry due to lack of armour... um, go one more space in their build list and build that unit, it is the grenade thrower with armour.

Even the armored ones are bad, protection vice I mean.
That`s a medium protection armor and they still don`t get a helm and no shield. They are still rather easy to kill, and their size is a another weakness too.
Hurlers are still going to die to the same amount of cavalry, gold vice.

[Valerius]

Redeyes, thanks for the info on the damage of 34 on the primary boulder attack - missed that when quickly glancing at the mod file. That's certainly a lot more threatening than the 8, boosted to 12 with strength of giants, that I had mentioned.

Having said that, my tests of thugged Ri vs. boulder throwers still hold true.

Decourcy, I thought it might be helpful if I posted my test files. You can run the attached save game both with an E9N6 bless and without it (using spells and magic items to get the necessary reinvig and regen).

My test results were as follows (ran 10 tests for each setup):

Ri with a heros blade, silver hauberk, bracers and girdle of might with an E9N6 bless and scripted Bless-->Barkskin-->Mistform
vs
36 of the armored boulder throwers buffed with strength of giants and an E4N4 bless
90% success rate (effective prot was 30 body, 24 head)

Ri with a heros blade, black plate armor, bracers and amulet of resilience scripted Air Shield-->Stoneskin-->Mistform and with a Tuatha Sorceress casting Regeneration and Soothing Song x 3 before retreating
vs
36 of the armored boulder throwers buffed with strength of giants and an E4N4 bless
90% success rate (effective prot was 31 body, 24 head)

Ri with a heros blade, black plate armor and amulet of resilience scripted Air Shield-->Stoneskin-->Mistform and with a Tuatha Sorceress casting Regeneration and Soothing Song x 3 before retreating
vs
36 of the armored boulder throwers buffed with strength of giants and an E4N4 bless
80% success rate (effective prot was 29 body, 24 head)

A few comments:

* I was purely testing thug vs. boulder throwers. Obviously a smiting H3 knocking off mistform will cause things to go south quickly.

* I had air shield scripted on tests two and three to mimic the silver hauberk from the first test but you could probably dispense with this (but I'm too lazy to run the test again without it ). Also, the AI will cast armor of achilles (and of course a player might script it) so even though I didn't bother equipping the thug with a helmet you might want to do so since sometimes his armored was destroyed dropping his head prot to 15 IIRC.

* TNN is vulnerable early on and needs some research in order to really start becoming effective. They are not Mictlan, who can lean on cheap, powerful troops from the beginning of the game. The traditional openings are Alt./Constr. for thugging and Evo. for thunderstrike. I generally go for thugs first because I like the flexibility they offer (more than ever with the current CBM) but both approaches have their uses and it depends on the opposition you're facing.

* With the current CBM there is more of a case than ever to go with a light bless rather than a full E9. But I do recommend at least E4N4. Thugging is an important aspect of this nation (and a very fun one at that). A light bless will save on gem costs and you'll get your money's worth out of it. If you really don't want to do that then at least get an N4 bless since regen gear is more expensive than reinvig gear and it lets you spread your forging costs over different gem types instead of having it focused in N (though this may not be the ideal situation for it you will typically be forging a lot of N shields and rainbow armor is also excellent).

* Advertising message: Doh! I really need to pay more attention to what mods I've got loaded when I run test games. So I recommend everyone check out GFSnl's Dystopia mod - you'll need it in order to open this save game.

[decourcy]

craptacular, i was looking at the E9 bless and its effect on Tuatha infantry, which was not terribly effective, especially since they are still vulnerable to armour of achilles.
Thugs certainly did better.

The one problem with this example is you are giving Tir E9. Well, if they have E9 give Agartha N9 or F9. What will happen then?

Llama, i am sorry if i seem aggressive to you.

I, and my friends, are still going back to vanilla. Again, there are many great features to CBM, but also many poorly thought out features.

I don't want a fight or to anger you, i was just expressing my opinion. And i know thugs can stomp AIs and
are easily stoppable by humans, i am not saying anything about that. All i said was that i feel that CBM EA agartha is now overpowered, to the point that i have no interest in CBM.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by decourcy

The one problem with this example is you are giving Tir E9.

No, in tests two and three I didn't cast bless and did everything with spells and magic items. It will cost you more gems and require more mages and more research in order to get the same effect - but you can do it without any bless.

But one important note: air shield is key since it will deflect the primary 34 point damage attack. I ran 10 tests without air shield and in each case the Ri lost. Typically mistform stayed up but the accumulated 1 HP damage from the boulders caused him to be wounded more quickly than regeneration could compensate for and this would cause him to rout.

[decourcy]

I wonder why air shield works on the 34 point attack but a physical shield doesn't? That is one those things i am going to need to learn. There is a lot in this game to study.

I hadn't tested air shield since Llama said the 34 point attack was not stopped by shields. (?) or was it just the 8 point splashes?