PBEM Game: Yarnspinners 2 (Running)

[quantum_mechani]

Ok, looks like I'm bowing out this turn. I would like to offer some justification for this though, for the players that were not involved in the recent negotiations. For those that were involved, I hope you don't see this as some kind of parting stab, it is just something I feel I have to get off of my chest, and something I feel it is only fair to let the other players know about.

Anyway, my involvement in the issue started some turns ago when several nations decided to attack attack me. This far from surprised me, from the graphs I looked the clear leader, and ganging was probably inevitable at some point. So, nations kept on declaring war until it was 4vs.1. By this time I was well aware of the fact that beset from four sides I really didn't have any hope of beating them all back, and any nations that could aid me were not enough and/or unresponsive. I still had not given up at this point though since I figured with some diplomacy I could maybe get some of the attackers to back off or even switch sides to give me a fighting chance.

Through all this my life had been fairly busy and I did not have time/energy to write yarns. Then I finally got a good opportunity to work on them and catch up, which happily coincided with a pause in the game. On catching up, I received an E-mail from the players that had been attacking me. It turned out that they had been in a special alliance of people that kept up on yarning, with the intent of keeping them yarning by threat of expulsion, and punishing the players that had given up on yarns. In particular, the agreement called for all players to assist in alliances wars, always come to mutual defense, not fight serious wars with one another, and participate in join victory. Now that I had caught up, their rules forced them to offer me membership.

But the problem was, that of course no one wanted to give up the war gains they had made. Naturally, I was not happy entering an agreement that effectively signed away those lands either. Aside from that, I did not see a lot of fun in joining since everything from that point on for the alliance would be mop up. In any case, negotiations went on and on, with me holding off submitting until I final staled, the final straw on my waining interest in the game.

So I guess my personal gripe is putting a lot of effort into both the game and the yarns and finding my self in an unavoidable pitfall. I could not have written yarns any sooner, even if had known that failing to do so would bring most of my neighbors down on me. In theory I could have expanded less, researched less, and not drawn attention. But really, has _anyone_ ever in a dominions game purposely not taken an independent province when you could have easily done so, not site site searched, or not researched with mages for the sole reason of not looking more powerful? It is effectively purposely playing the game badly, and personally I cannot stomach doing that.

Now, if the yarnspinners alliance had not been in place I may well have faced a similar ganging problem, but with some important differences:

*The attacks would likely have waited longer and/or been more timid as they could never be sure of other nations support

*They would not by any means be bound together rock solidly, using diplomacy to split them apart would have been possible, particularly after I appeared a little less powerful.

*By fighting to the death well I could offer other nations a better chance of winning. With the power of the four nations solidly together for a joint victory, this was not a realistic idea.

But I think the real issue with the alliance was it's secrecy. I'm not sure if the alliance was conceived before the start of the game, but if so, it gave those nations who were thus aware of it a very large advantage. Secondly, if four players are planning to win the game jointly, they should declare so when the decision is reached, because otherwise it is like playing graphs off for some nations and graphs on for others. I have no problem with the yarn encouraging aspect, but this could have been handled just as well or better without the secrecy, or better yet by giving the overseer greater power of rewards or punishments. It certainly does contain a trace of irony that alliance is actually the cause for me to stop yarning.

Anyway, I hope no one was offended by my whiny rant, I hold no hard feelings toward any of the players involved. Hopefully in addition to making me feel better it can help prevent similar situations occurring to other players.

[Sedna]

You are in an unenviable position, and I think you have every right to drop out now if you wish, though we will miss hearing your yarns. I should mention that the yarnspinners alliance was formed only once the game was well underway... as I recall during the negotiations about attacking you/Pythium actually. It is also not quite the binding death-pact you make it out to be, since anyone is free to withdraw at any time. Speaking purely hypothetically, and in no way impugning the motives of the good Father, I do not believe it will survive your defeat or departure from the game. There are too many opportunities to have a war with interesting stories on both sides.

I'm pretty sure Panther got the idea for COW from all the wangling involved in this alliance, which (and again, I'm speaking off the record and not as a representative of the Church of Marignon) some members only viewed cynically as a vehicle to eliminate the leader and thus advance their own agenda.

It's probably sour grapes at this point, but I, for one, was impressed by how long you lasted against the combined assault...

[puffyn]

Hey Quantum,

Well, gosh, I'm sorry to see you go, and not just because of the unpleasant AI-land-grab free-for-all that will result. Are you going AI this turn? Will you at least write a farewell yarn?

As for our little alliance, the original intent was to knock you down from the top of the charts, of course. But it wasn't necessarily to annihilate Pythium. Personally, I was hoping for some more double-crossing, perhaps some members of the alliance making a secret deal with you, that sort of thing. After Yarnspinners Classic, with only one other yarner active for most of the game, it's been great fun negotiating with multiple parties, just wondering how they'll spin it in their next turn. I'm sorry you're leaving just when you've finally caught up...

It certainly is your right, though. Good luck with your future diplomacy-heavy games; I'll be watching Council of Wyrms to see how that turns out.

-puffyn

[quantum_mechani]

Sedna said:
You are in an unenviable position, and I think you have every right to drop out now if you wish, though we will miss hearing your yarns. I should mention that the yarnspinners alliance was formed only once the game was well underway... as I recall during the negotiations about attacking you/Pythium actually. It is also not quite the binding death-pact you make it out to be, since anyone is free to withdraw at any time. Speaking purely hypothetically, and in no way impugning the motives of the good Father, I do not believe it will survive your defeat or departure from the game. There are too many opportunities to have a war with interesting stories on both sides.

I'm pretty sure Panther got the idea for COW from all the wangling involved in this alliance, which (and again, I'm speaking off the record and not as a representative of the Church of Marignon) some members only viewed cynically as a vehicle to eliminate the leader and thus advance their own agenda.

It's probably sour grapes at this point, but I, for one, was impressed by how long you lasted against the combined assault...

I think I could have put off total defeat almost indefinitely, particularly with ether warriors coming on the scene, but there was just not much point in doing so. As I have said other times I like a good fight to the death, but in this case it would not serve any purpose, the alliance has the game firmly under control.

I don't see that the alliance leaves much room for double crossing, it would be foolish for any other members to join my side as it stands.

Spending all the effort to catch up and then quiting is certainly annoying, but I just can't justify putting more effort in when it won't actually change anything.

[The Panther]

Actually, I did get the idea of COW from this game. The bickering back and forth and all the wheeling and dealing has been such fun. The deals never seem to go off as one would think, especially with 4 players involved. And it has been even better to be forced to stay in role while doing this, which we all have done (including QM).

While it is true that we had an alliance of Yarnspinners, we all knew that it could not last indefinitely and we were positioning ourselves for the long-term future of the game. Trying to get the first to commit to actually attacking the game leader was quite interesting to witness. Staking out claims on territory, the inevitable inadvertent mutliple attacks, all of this was very enjoyable.

I suppose I was most disappointed in the fact that most people in the game quit writing the yarns much too early on. Other than the spinners, it has been just another MP game for the most part.

The COW game was my idea to force people to keep active plus stay in role throughout the entire game without the chore of having to write a yarn every week. I hope it works out that way.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
Actually, I did get the idea of COW from this game. The bickering back and forth and all the wheeling and dealing has been such fun. The deals never seem to go off as one would think, especially with 4 players involved. And it has been even better to be forced to stay in role while doing this, which we all have done (including QM).

While it is true that we had an alliance of Yarnspinners, we all knew that it could not last indefinitely and we were positioning ourselves for the long-term future of the game. Trying to get the first to commit to actually attacking the game leader was quite interesting to witness. Staking out claims on territory, the inevitable inadvertent mutliple attacks, all of this was very enjoyable.

I suppose I was most disappointed in the fact that most people in the game quit writing the yarns much too early on. Other than the spinners, it has been just another MP game for the most part.

The COW game was my idea to force people to keep active plus stay in role throughout the entire game without the chore of having to write a yarn every week. I hope it works out that way.

The terms clearly stated that the goal was joint victory...

[djo]

Like the others, I'm sorry to see you go. From my perspective as the small guy (in armies if no longer in provinces), Pythium is still much in the game.

I was uneasy about the "alliance of writers" from the start, and in retrospect, it did turn out awkward (an understatement) when out-of-game circumstances forced themselves into the game.

I think the alliance has zero chance of lasting much longer. My view is that the game will come down to Marignon + ??? vs death-using nations, probably after Ermor goes down. That would've been a good wedge to use against the alliance, assuming Pythium wasn't using death.

But anyway...I too was hoping more diplomacy would've ended the war earlier, but I admit I don't know exactly what combination of threat, bribe, and concession would've worked. I know you could've bought Vanheim off cheaply; from the yarns, Vethru obviously has no trouble with lying to friend and enemies; he'd cook up a plan to trade a province back and forth to look like we're fighting.

And, if you change your mind, I made no belligerent moves on turn 31. Still time to turn it around...declare immediate war on Ermor and unilateral cease-fire with others, see what happens!

[quantum_mechani]

djo said:
Like the others, I'm sorry to see you go. From my perspective as the small guy (in armies if no longer in provinces), Pythium is still much in the game.

I was uneasy about the "alliance of writers" from the start, and in retrospect, it did turn out awkward (an understatement) when out-of-game circumstances forced themselves into the game.

I think the alliance has zero chance of lasting much longer. My view is that the game will come down to Marignon + ??? vs death-using nations, probably after Ermor goes down. That would've been a good wedge to use against the alliance, assuming Pythium wasn't using death.

But anyway...I too was hoping more diplomacy would've ended the war earlier, but I admit I don't know exactly what combination of threat, bribe, and concession would've worked. I know you could've bought Vanheim off cheaply; from the yarns, Vethru obviously has no trouble with lying to friend and enemies; he'd cook up a plan to trade a province back and forth to look like we're fighting.

And, if you change your mind, I made no belligerent moves on turn 31. Still time to turn it around...declare immediate war on Ermor and unilateral cease-fire with others, see what happens!

Well, as I said the staling was the final straw. I really, really hate it when that happens. If we were to quickly rerun the turn yet again I suppose I might continue my fight to the death, to prevent the AI landgrab.

I really don't see how diplomacy could have happened to better my situation, the rules of the alliance are pretty clear:

The Yarn Spinners Pact

Let it be recorded that those nations in the Land of Inland which publish
full diaries in the chronicles of ONN will join together into an Alliance of
Yarn Enumerators (AYE). This alliance will be governed by the following
rules:

(1) Only those nations which religiously publish diaries will be allowed
into AYE. Currently, these include (in alphabetical order) the nations of
C'tis, Man, Marignon, and Vanheim.

(2) Any member of AYE which falls behind by more than 2 published diaries
will be dropped from the pact.

(3) Any other nations which manage to fully catch up with the publications
of diaries will be invited into AYE.

(4) All active members of AYE will form a solid alliance from this point
forward.

(5) An attack upon any member of AYE will be considered an attack on all.

(6) We will trade gems and artifacts and gold between AYE members as needed.

(7) We will coordinate any attacks upon rogue nations.

(8) We will pledge to eliminate all other nations before the end of the
world and crown ourselves as joint rulers of Inland if this can be achieved
in time.

(9) No one should share this secret pact with non-believers and we should
strive to keep it hidden from all others.

Amendments:

(M1) Marignon and Ermor will be free to fight on their own, and the Yarn
Spinners Pact shall not be invoked by this struggle.

(M2) Marignon reserves the right to freeze relations (as per Marignon's
first proclamation) with members of the alliance if they receive
incontrovertible proof that a member is using death magic. Such a charge
will be published to all the members of the pact, and the offender may
submit to the Trials of Marignon in order to prove their innocence.

Points of Understanding:

(U1) If two members of the pact both wish to fight a mini-war, either to
defeat suspicion that our alliance might exist, or to placate internal
troublemakers, or even simply to provide an interesting tale told by both
sides of the struggle, then such a skirmish may take place.

According to these rules, it would be quite foolish for any nation to break with the group and help (or even stop attacking) me. Whatever bribes I could offer would be far outweighed by being the next target of the alliance, and not getting easy spoils from the fact my legions could not be on every border at once.

I would like to see someone address the 'overexpanding' issue, it was thrown around a lot during negotiations, but when it comes right down to it how many of you have purposely played the game badly for this reason?

[djo]

To use terms from RPG "theory", this discussion sounds like differences between "gamist" and "narrativist" viewpoints.

(Google for the terms, you'll find more than you *ever* wanted to know.)

[quantum_mechani]

djo said:
To use terms from RPG "theory", this discussion sounds like differences between "gamist" and "narrativist" viewpoints.

(Google for the terms, you'll find more than you *ever* wanted to know.)

I suppose in a way yes, but as as far as I can see no one with the possible exception of you is playing from a real 'narrativist' viewpoint.