US OOB 12 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by DRG

.....and the Sikorsky R-5 is in the OOB now with it's own icon

Don, thanks -- I wasn't actually meaning to bug you about that. It was more of a case of me pulling at strings to run things down -- I just got a copy of TO&E 1-1087 from the US Air Force Historical Research Agency; and decided to do a quick update; as I think this is the only place on the internet where TO&E 1-1087 is mentioned.

[MarkSheppard]

Is it possible to add a Heavy Tank Company to the US OOB from say May 1945?

By then, ETO had:

172 x on hand on 20 April 1945
229 x on hand on 20 May 1945

https://www.fold3.com/image/287490040

MONTHLY COMBAT VEHICLE LOSSES
(Extracted from Ordnance -Monthly Reports of Materiel Consumed)

(huge chart of 75/76mm Sherman losses not shown)

(at bottom of chart attached via tape was this note)

[DRG]

CONGRATULATIONS!... you opened Pandora's box




I did add a Hvy Co, that's easily enough done ( OR UNDONE ) and you could have easily done it yourself.....the question is, even though the numbers may have supported companies were they ever actually organized into companies and that, IIRC is why we haven't had a US Hvy tank co in SPww2 for a quarter century. PERSONALLY, I am not convinced that they were ever used as complete companies during the war..... maybe after May 1945.... maybe so when ( if ) a Hvy co starts depends on further info

Just having enough " on hand" does not mean Coys existed

SO........... prove they were actually organized into Companies and I'll leave the company in otherwise I won't. They MAY have been organized into Coys Post war and if they did in 1946 then there is a justifiable reason to add it up to the end of 1946.

The info I found suggests they were attached in ones and twos ( and why now a single Hvy Tank can be bought.....) to "normal" companies and if so that is a legitimate formation for the game but I need details.

For the past quarter century, we have left that up to the player to substitute a platoon of Mediums for a platoon or section of Hvys and for 25 years nobody has pointed out we are missing Hvy tank coys and for 25 years that worked as the info we had then ( and it seems now as well ) supported

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/ar...late-for-wwii/

Between December 1944 and March 1945, a total of 436 units were produced with over 2,000 made by the end of 1945. In March 1945, the tank entered combat in Europe redesignated the M26 Pershing.........it was not until the end of the year that the first batch of T26E3 tanks, the first 40 off the production line, were ready to be committed to combat. Of these, 20 were immediately shipped overseas and the others moved to Fort Knox, Kentucky, to undergo extensive field testing. The new tanks arrived at the port of Antwerp, Belgium, in January 1945, and were the only Pershings in the European Theater. The next shipment was not expected until April.............it was decided to get the new tanks into action as soon as possible. To that end, all 20 Pershings were assigned to the U.S. 1st Army and divided equally between the 3rd and 9th Armored Divisions. On February 17 the tanks were transported to an instruction facility near Aachen, Germany. By the 23rd, training for tank crews and maintenance personnel had been completed.

NOW.... what this also claims is relevant

........After the fight at Paderborn, Task Force Welborn sped on to the Weser River, reaching it on April 7. Three days later the Sherman was disabled by panzerfaust fire in the village of Espchenrode near the Harz Mountains. That afternoon they received a replacement tank, a Super Pershing (T26E4)..........which had been in action before, and was one of only two deployed to Europe during World War II[/b]. Additional armor protection had been installed, and it was equipped with a new long-barreled T15E1 90mm gun that was designed to outperform the high-velocity 88mm cannon found on the German Tiger I and King Tiger.

IF that is indeed the case then the T26E4 we have starting Dec 1945 needs to start 4/45 ( as a side note it was a German ambush of TF Welborn in late March that lead to the death of General Rose.)

By mid-April 1945, a total of 185 new Pershings had arrived in the European Theater. Of these, 110 served with the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 9th, and 11th Armored Divisions by war’s end. There were 310 M26 tanks in theater on May 8, 1945 (VE-Day), of which 200 were actually delivered for frontline service.

110 active vehicles divided by 5 divisions = 22 which IS enough to make up a company but it APPEARS they were spread out and assigned to units when replacements were needed. I have yet to find any mention of company sized formations during WW2........ they MAY have been after May 1945....... Let us know what you find out





Further http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2012...-pershing.html

The T15E1 gun was 73 calibers in length and had a much longer high capacity chamber. This gave it a muzzle velocity of 1,140 m/s with the T30E16 APCR shot and could penetrate the Panther's frontal armor at up to 2,400 m. This model used a single piece 1,300mm long ammunition and was the only Super Pershing sent to Europe. After the tank arrived in Europe, maintenance units in the Third Armor Division added extra armor to the front of the tank. The Pershing's gun mantlet was a known weak point in the armor, and so an 80mm piece from a Panther tank was added in front of the mantlet and another Panther´s scrap armour was added in the front of the Pershing´s hull.

That supports the info that "This machine, which had been in action before, ............ Additional armor protection had been installed"

so TWO sources back up that there was a super Pershing that saw combat in the ETO. Revised Icon now completed and entered









and finally............

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armo...hp?armor_id=64

says only aout 20 M26's ever saw combat with over 100 held back and it also mentions the Super Pershing saw combat so if nothing else we have an adjustment to the Super Pershings start date and the addition of a single Hvy tank formation when in the past they could only be bought 2 and 4 so show me info that there were indeed Pershing companies and I'll leave the coy I created in

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I intend to set the record straight concerning the PERSHING tank.

The most famous PERSHING tank of the war was #26 that fought in the Battle of Paderborn Railyard in Cologne Germany March 1945.

I know about the crew that served it the German crew they fought in that PANTHER.

The book followed 2 American crews of the 3rd Armored Div, /32nd Regiment from when the PATTONS 3rd Army when they landed at D-DAY +3 weeks. It also followed an attached Infantry Unit and the German PANZER IV/PANTHER G crew until the meeting in Cologne.

From this a friendship w/reunions continued well after it ended.

The book is "SPEARHEAD" by Adam Makos he speaks of the battle the tanks and more importantly the crews firsthand.

His references are "impeachable" but if by God I need to list them, I'll not hesitate to do so. This is what happens when you're feeling "under the weather" dealing with a "myth".

I will refer you to one of our most honored armor paintings of WWII. "SPEARHEAD" as painted by Garreth Hector.

22 FEB 1945 Near Stolberg, Germany live fire test of #26 for the Commanding Officer 3rd Armored Division Gen. Maurice Rose, Staff and Regiments. He wanted to see what its capabilities were and to see how it would fit into his plans on the drive to Cologne.

26 FEB 1945 for 32nd Reg. Easy (With #26) and Able Companies advance on Blatzheim (Near Golszheim "jump off") about 30 miles from Cologne (Bravo and Charlie Companies in reserve.)
The rest of the 32nd Regiment was equipped with STUARTS and SHERMANS.

The plant that built the PERSHING M26E3 tank was the Fisher Grand Blanc Tank Arsenal in Detroit, MI. the first 40 tanks built were split between Ft. Knox, TN. 1-21 with 22-41 split between 3rd and 9th Armored Divisions. The last PERSHING built by Fisher Grand Blanc was in OCT 1945.

The ref below documents their combat service in Europe.

12 PERSHING tanks would be sent to Okinawa in May 1945. But I've not found anything about any combat use, but not saying there wasn't any. EDIT: They arrived too late to see combat as the island was soon secured.

This was a very good tank, but the myth was it was "everywhere" well that was in another "war" and even there wasn't enough there as we had the Soviets to worry about elsewhere, so the SHERMAN kept on serving.
http://www.usautoindustryworldwartwo...grandblanc.htm
(Below "LAST BUILT" picture you'll see #26 fighting in Cologne.)

WASHOUT/WASHOUT/WASHOUT
Another source from Canadian Museum
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/us/m26_pershing.php
("After the war, M26s were grouped into the 1st Infantry Division, stationed in Europe as a reserve, following the events of the summer of 1947. The “Big Red One” counted 123 M26s in three regimental and one divisional tank battalions. In the summer of 1951, with the NATO reinforcement program, three more infantry divisions were stationed in West Germany, and accepted mostly battle-proven M26s retired from Korea.")

This is where they went in WWII and why.

3rd Armored (Cologne on the Rhine.) had 10 total between the 32nd and 33rd Regiments.

9th Armored (Remagen Ladendorf Railway Bridge.) had 11 total between the 14th and 19th Battalions.

Highly recommend the book and his others "A Higher Call" and "Devotion" that inspired the current movie. This is called CYA!

I POSTED THE FOLLOWING FOR THE PAINTING BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY I WOULD DIRECT YOU TO THE "SIGNERS" TAB. PICTURES ARE OF THE CREW ETC.
https://www.valorstudios.com/product...-gareth-hector
(I DO NOT OWN ANY PRODUCTS FROM ABOVE WITH EXCEPTION OF THE BOOKS FROM ELSEWHERE.)

I have other work to try pick up on-again!?!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

As noted I added a formation that allows a single Pershing to be bought as that really should be how they are bought........one at a time, even the platoon is going too far. That said I have.......for now..... "decided" to put that Hvy tank Coy into the Misc section for " what if". ( subject to changing my mind about it )

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by DRG

As noted I added a formation that allows a single Pershing to be bought as that really should be how they are bought........one at a time, even the platoon is going too far. That said I have.......for now..... "decided" to put that Hvy tank Coy into the Misc section for " what if". ( subject to changing my mind about it )

I did some research.

From Zaloga's "Pershing vs Tiger: Germany 1945", Hunnicutt's "Pershing" and Hanger's "The M26 Pershing: America’s Forgotten Tank - Developmental and Combat History":

During the active portion of combat, at least three batches of Pershings arrived in the ETO during active combat:

The first batch (20 tanks) arrived February/March 1945.

Distribution was:

3rd Armored -- Deployed them starting 25 February 1945 for Operation LUMBERJACK; 10 tanks total to 3AD, with 32nd and 33d Armored Regiments getting 5 tanks each. The tanks were distributed as follows:

32nd Armored Regiment -- D, E, G, H and I Companies: 1 Pershing Each
33nd Armored Regiment -- D, E, F, H, and I Companies: 1 Pershing Each

9th Armored -- The 9th got 10 tanks and they were divided amongst the 14th and 19th Tank Battalions at 5 tanks each, with the following distribution:

14th Tk Bn -- Heavy Tank Platoon attached to A Company
19th Tk Bn -- One tank in A Company, two in B Company and two in C Company.

NOTE: In early April, the 14th Tank Battalion's Pershings were traded to the 19th Tank Battalion for Shermans.

The second batch of Pershings (40 tanks) arrived in late March 1945, and 2d Armored Division got 22 while 5th Armored Division got 18.

The third batch (30 tanks) arrived April 1945 and went to the 11th Armored Division.

----

EDIT- According to “After-Action Report, Third United States Army, 1 August 1944 - 9 May 1945,” Record Group 156, Entry 894, Box J367, National Archives, p. 27. --90 x M26s were allocated to Third Army, and 40 were allocated to the 11th Armored Division, with the remaining 50 held in Third Army's Main Combat Vehicle Pool.

--

On 6 May 1945, the ETO had 108 Pershings in units, and 202 more in the theater being pushed forward through the system.

======

Past this -- information is hard to come by for the later periods -- April onwards -- because everyone goes to the "Easy to find" history stuff in NARA II RG156 Entry 646A -- stuff that was carefully collected by Ordnance Corps for post-war histories with emphasis on the Zebra Mission, with the heaviest emphasis on Jan/Feb/March 1945.

===========

EDIT: RG156 Entry 646A Box 776, "Analysis of Conclusions and Recommendations contained in General Barnes’ report of Mission to European Theater of Operations" dated 10 April 1945 says:

"The M4 tank production program has been cut back in order to accelerate the M26 program. Four hundred M26 tanks will be enroute to European Theater of Operations by the end of April."

[MarkSheppard]

Fold3.COM has a June 1945 USFET Report on redeployment that gives us an inventory of the US ETO stockpile circa Mid-Summer 1945:

https://www.fold3.com/image/287322875/287322894
https://www.fold3.com/image/287322875/287322897

7,636 x M4 Shermans (75/76) in ETO; with 1,172 obligated for occupation forces, and 469 scheduled for redeployment, and 686 already shipped out.

1,468 x M4 Shermans (105) in ETO; with 164 obligated for occupation forces, and 86 scheduled for redeployment and 28 already shipped out.

295 x M26 Pershings in ETO; with zero (0) being scheduled for redeployment.

So it looks to me as soon as "Big Army" knew that Germany was done and dusted; they immediately put a screeching halt to any further shipments of Pershings to ETO and pushed everything towards the Pacific Ports.

I kept digging further and found something related to the 781st Tank Battalion on Fold3 dated 12 Feb 1946 that was the Unit History from 1 Jan 1946 to 19 Feb 1946:

https://www.fold3.com/image/313748320

Apparently on 31 December 1945; 2nd Army made the TO&E of the 781st Tk Bn in CONUS to be:

Company A: Medium Tank Company
Company B: Heavy Tank Company
Company C: Deactivated -- Was a Medium Tank Co; men transferred to other companies, bringing them up to strength.
Company D: Light Tank Company

This didn't last long as on 4 Feb 1946, the Battalion was ordered inactivated, and was accordingly deactivated on 19 February 1946.

PS: I went further into the rabbithole on the 781st and found this:

https://www.fold3.com/image/313748459

Higher headquarters making every attempt to get armor to the infantry across the Neckar River equipped Company "A" [of the 781st] on the 6th of April [1945] with ten(10) DD (floating tanks) and company personnel received intensive training in the use of these tanks for one day prior to use.

"You've got one day of training on these DD tanks! Now do a forced river crossing with them the next day!"

[DRG]

I think it's safe to say there were no Hvy tank coys except on paper. I will leave the one I built in Misc as the text for it says......

There is little evidence full companies of Pershings existed so this is for "what if"*

Start date will be 1/46


So what came from all of this was...

• A single tank formation which is mainly how Pershings were used in 1945 and is certainly more realistic than even a full platoon which is stretching things "a bit"
• A revised start date for the Super Pershing
• A "what if" Hvy Tank coy starting 1/46

[Suhiir]

I recall a documentary on the Pershing saying that in Europe they were assigned as a replacement for one of the Shermans in a normal platoon.

This was for two main reasons. They didn't have all that many of them, and they were new ... no one trusted they'd work as advertised.

[zovs66]

I thought I created a scenario with the only known combat of the Pershing but can’t recall off hand.