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[TheConway]

Originally Posted by GrudgeBringer

there are a LOT of us on here that don't know a thing about modding, know where to look for anything about modding, and actually don't care to mod.

This is precisely my point. I told you and others where you can find the mod manual, so you can educate yourselves. Its only about a 3 page pdf file, nothing that someone smart enough to play dominions can't handle. You don't need to be an experienced modder at all to read it and understand some basic concepts of what can and can't be done. I don't think its unfair at all to ask that people make use of an easily available resource that take minimal effort to understand and will infinitely improve their ability to make cogent suggestions.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by PriestyMan

5 gems? the 30% magic sites essentially provide 20 gems/turn *at the least* if its a conj, const, or blood site, they can be worth 50+ gems/turn. they are on a totally different level than a measly 5 gems. and no amount of planning or pretender design can detrmine who gets them, so they can totally derail and unbalance a game

Yes. Late-game. Early/mid-game, getting a site that gives 5 times as much income as the next one is quite useful, unless you're saving all your gems and never using any before you reach the late game when a conj or blood site will indeed rock. I think all the proposed nerfs only apply to big, long games with many players. In a 4 player game, even a 40%bonus blood site may not tip the game because the game can be finished before you can make use of it.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

With regards to hammers, I agree with some of the previous posters, CBM is about giving us more options. I feel hammers do just that. They give us options of different items to produce. Otherwise, we just use the same fire/frost brand with boots of the messenger, etc. Its not like the major earth nations are huge threats in the MP environment (Agartha, Marverni, Ulm are not world beaters by any stretch). Hammers give the earth nations bargaining chips early in the game as well as a leg up that they need.

Is that really true? Because I know with dwarven hammers, I nearly always make brands unless I a) don't have the gems, or b) am looking for a more specialized weapon. Without hammers I'd be making less brands etc because you won't be able to afford the gems to craft them as easily and you'll actually have to consider using different gem types. And if all games started uner CBM 1.7 use higher gem frequency settings, you'll still have lots of gems to play with.

Agartha, Marverni and Ulm are hurt a bit by the lack of hammers, but that doesn't mean that they can't be compensated for it somehow. The most obvious method would be with a forge bonus, of course, but it doesn't have to be a forge bonus either (I'd much rather have a forge bonus as a bargaining chip than hammers, though!). But there are a lot of ways you can boost a nation if its been hit unfairly.

Originally Posted by P3D

+1

However, I'd keep dousing rods, as they level the blood playing field. Without them, nations that have B2 access outside capitol has a great advantage, not needing to spend 30 slaves to empower.

Mictlan is strangely not that much affected, they only have to rush Blood 6 (Tlahuelpuchi with B2 for 25 girls) instead of Const.

If nations who only have weak/expensive access to blood are given a dousing bonus, they'll have built in dousing rods and be much, much better than they are presently. Meanwhile strong blood nations can remain the same, which means relatively more expensive blood slaves. Which will bring blood nations closer together. You can't quite do that for a non-blood nation (I don't think dousing bonuses work on units that aren't blood mages already, or you could give a bonus to scouts), but I don't really have a problem with non-blood nations having to struggle to compete at it. It kind of bothers me that all nations are supposed to end up having all magic paths by the end of the game anyway.

[Zeldor]

There were many talks about CBM 1.8 and nation balance on IRC. I think that QM should reveal some of it, to show what's going to happen.

I don't think 1.7 is the best mod - but I like removal of all items. It just needs many more national changes to make it work. And I'm disappointed that tartarians did not get removed.

[WraithLord]

I voted yes to item removals (QM: making them unique is for all intents removing them for all but one nation - and even that nation would only have negligible gain from that).

I voted no to 30%+ sites. These sites perk up the game: you get one in 1:N (5
Hammers removal, rdonj has put it well. However a redress is in store as was suggested in the other thread in the other forum.

[Ragnars Wolves]

I don't think I have ever seen a 30% site....I will sure be looking for one though!!

[GrudgeBringer]

TheConway

I am not going to get in a flame war with you or anyone else...

I don't really care what you think, who you think you are in the 'modding' community, or what you THINK you can contribute to the conversation, other than trying to make it yours. If I had known you were the Forum Police maybe I would have paid more attention to what you said.

As I said, I was just making an offhand suggestion that would give someone an idea IF they thought it was a good idea, AND they wanted to keep the hammers. I just play the game.

However, if you check my profile you will see that my comment about friends was why I was on here in the first place. To say hi to them and see what they were up to, as time and RL sometimes gets in the way.

So there is no need to for us to have any other conversation or for you to comment to ME in any way as I don't know you ...or care to.

Let it go

Sorry EX, didn't mean to get this started or to hijack your thread. I won't respond to this guy again. And for what it is worth, I think that is the best poll of things for this game I have seen in a long time.

[llamabeast]

TheConway is just frustrated because every time there is a discussion about hammers, a couple of people will suggest that there should be multiple different hammer items. This has happened quite a few times by now. It sometimes distracts considerably from the discussion because everyone else goes "that's a good idea, why don't we just do that? Silly qm".

[Zeldor]

All discount sites need to be removed probably. At least 90% of them. For construction and alt even 10% is too much.

I have won one game when I had Summoning Circle - 60% blood discount. I had 100 vampire lords, ice devils, arch devils, demon lords, heliophagis...

I had an epic game where I had Ultimate Gateway and I was fighting for victory against Lanka with blood40 site...

Game like that are totally unnatural. They break the game. They make it interesting, sure, but when you get the site and you are at least medium nation, it's almost like "I win" button. Or rather cheat code. And other players still play the game, not knowing they have absolutely zero chances of winning.

Sites like that should only exist when others know you have them. It's not possible at dom3. So it's best to leave these sites out of the game. They can still be placed by mapmakers, so you can use custom maps with those sites at well known location.

[Kobal2]

I haven't voted either way, but I'm not sure discount sites really need to go, except for the Alteration one.

Sure, they are quite powerful and boost the nation that finds them - but then, so does finding great cross-path indep mage sites, or simply getting lots of 3+ gem sites. As long as sites aren't painstakingly distributed and balanced by hand by the mapmaker, magical luck of the draw is always going to favour some players and bone some others. And I'm not quite convinced I want to do away with that inherent unfairness, or the wonder and evil cackling associated with discovering the Steel Ovens.

Besides, it's not like they're an instant "I win" button, you gotta know what to *do* with them, right ? If you don't know squat about gearing SCs and thugs, a Const bonus is quite wasted on you.

Now, as has been discussed in the previous thread on the subject, the Alt discount site is problematic all on its own because it provides an explosively exponential boost whereas other discount sites only provide a linear one. But the rest of 'em ? Meh. I can see how people who've played the game for aeons and are into competitive rankings and such would want to do away with as much of the randomness as possible, but that's not really me.