cheapest summonable thug

[WingedDog]

Jarkko

Why do you even post a comment if you do not bother to read the discussion?

I repeat my question, since my "blanket statement" was all about it:

What's your point? You winning battle after the battle because your bola-wielding commanders equipped with boots of strength and bear claw, and you wouldn't win those battles if they were not equipped with it?

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by WingedDog

This is not an RPG, where your "pet" must have the best equipment and no empty slots - this is a wargame and you need to get maximum efficiency for minimal cost. Yes, bola would have a better range, yes it would hit opponent harder, but it is still a missile weapon and could be deflected by a shield, or countered by air shield.
Besides very next turn same abysians could cast Fire Storm, or, if enemy has strong death - darkness with hordes of undead, or airdrop few thugs, or SC with Solar Brilliance, etc. Result the same: commanders with fire bolas end up dead, because they are expendable units, and doubling the cost of expendable unit is a waste of gems.

Baalz had written a very good guide about choosing the right equipment for thugs: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41970
I recomend you to read it if you didn't - it really helped me at some point of understanding the game.

Gee, I'm not misunderstanding the nature of the game. I have read Baalz thugging guide and I understand those points very well. I don't advocate it because it is some favourite hangup of mine, I do it because I happened to found it very effective early on in some MP games as EA Agartha(with Ancient lords) and Machaka(sleepers). I say a little strength bonus is often what makes the bolas worth it, simple as that.

[Fantomen]

What's your point? You winning battle after the battle because your bola-wielding commanders equipped with boots of strength and bear claw, and you wouldn't win those battles if they were not equipped with it?

Yes, actually this is what I'm saying. But only early game against the right opposition of course. I wouldn't use it after I've got better research done, but that is true for many tactics so...

[Mysterio]

Originally Posted by WingedDog

Boots of quickness (any quickness spells/blesses in general) do allow to cast item spell twice, but do not allow to fire ranged weapon twice.

Are you saying a commander equipped with a Bow of Accuracy and Boots of Quickness will not fire twice in a single turn? I could have sworn I saw one of the commanders in the hero army (random event) doing just that.

[militarist]

It's really quite strange to here that some strategy never worth using under any conditions.

Let model a hypothetical situation. You have forge of ancients,good gem income. You have a lot of researches who eat all your budget (you spend remains on hiring bloodhunters) and you want them to continue research instead of fighting. You are advanced with research (you can reach all 9 levels before starting any war). You can not create an army. You have very strong casters. But you can't use casters with no chaff. Partially chaff can be done by blood if you have it. But if not, or not enough?
One of ideas is just cast dragon masters and dozens of dozens of dragons.
The idea can be to create a second line, who does some damage and also have blocking function with these bolas. Of course not 4+ sleepers, but 20+ and maybe quickened by water magic, and maybe even given some additional equipment which is cheaper with forge. I don't know if it works and if it can be countered harder or easier in comparison to equipping indie commanders with rods of phoenix + penetration items though. But in reality if we think where to spend fire gems on items..mayby massed bolas still have some function as a blocker? High prot/MR thughs can also be an option, but if you play against nation which has good access to soul slay, i'm not sure you can rely just on fat thugs to hold the line. And just do cast dragons for second and third line also doesn't sound like the optimal strategy.

I mean midgame battle where hundreads of units are taking part in a battle from each side

[WingedDog]

Fantomen
I understand your point of view, though I still think your commanders with just two bolas would work as good. But again, I'm only telling my opinion.

Mysterio
That archer is an exception.

militarist
I'm not telling using bolas is wrong, I'm telling unit using bolas doesn't need additional equipment IMO. You put a lot of gems in your tactic, mass scouts with bolas would be much cheaper and would still work as blockers.

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

Is that small bow true? I thought consensus was it didn't work!

I didn't test it to make sure, but I seem to recall using flaming arrows with small bow-equipped skinks in a test or an mp game in which it worked. Since that would easily more than double their potential effective damage, it's not a bad direction to go. It should work though.

It should be noted that I listed fire flare as a ranged weapon... it is not. It is a melee attack used by abysian salamanders, I believe. I just failed to remove it from the list when copy/pasting from the database.

[Mysterio]

Originally Posted by WingedDog

Mysterio
That archer is an exception.

Really? So the only commander capable of firing twice when equipped with Boots of Quickness and a forged bow is one with a Bow of Accuracy? I wonder why that is.

[thejeff]

No, he's saying the Troll Archer in Bogus's group is an exception. This may be true, much about Bogus's group is an exception.

But I'm not sure this is an exception. I just ran a quick test with a Lizard Lord, Boots of Quickness & a Bow of War. He definitely fired twice in some rounds. Fired
and moved in others and Fired, moved and fired in one. Similarly with Boots & a Banefire Crossbow, he fired most but not all rounds. And made a partial moves forward.

This matches what I've seen before, particularly with W9 Ancestral Vessels. They would Fire, some of them would advance and some would fire again.

So, I'd say quickness & bows works but not quite as well as you'd expect. This may qualify as a bug. Either firing twice as often or no effect would be understandable, but I can't justify this weirdness.

[Sombre]

Quickness lets you fire twice with a missile weapon in some rounds, yeah. This has been observed many times.