Help on controlling the AI please

[Suhiir]

Believe me Pyros knows what he's talking about.

I don't know why (I have strong suspicion but can't say for certain), but sometimes if you buy new units it totally screws up the waypoints.
Sometimes it doesn't.
To be on the safe side it's best to buy and make any formation alterations before you start trying to work on pathing via waypoints.

Again, just one of those "how it works" things.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Believe me Pyros knows what he's talking about.

I don't know why (I have strong suspicion but can't say for certain), but sometimes if you buy new units it totally screws up the waypoints.
Sometimes it doesn't.
To be on the safe side it's best to buy and make any formation alterations before you start trying to work on pathing via waypoints.

Again, just one of those "how it works" things.

I am sure he does but the 2 still conflict Pyros suggests plotting the waypoints before buying the other side (point 1 in the link of my previos post). The Guide states messing with either side will mess them up which is right.

[Imp]

Suhiir I am going to be busy for next couple of days but will look properly at what you posted then. Is it allright if I PM or email you about to discuss further as feel probably best if just post findings.

A couple of things reaction 99 as I said i think is special but no one has said.
Reaction 98 is to I think that fixes a unit in place.
Another conflict I have found Pyros states in document guide links to right at start that Reaction MUST be set to zero to work properly. I extracted one of his campaigns & a quick look shows most are set to reaction of 1 some 99s & others so this does not match the stated advice.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Imp

I am sure he does but the 2 still conflict Pyros suggests plotting the waypoints before buying the other side (point 1 in the link of my previos post). The Guide states messing with either side will mess them up which is right.

No, actually if you read what he wrote carefully he suggested TESTING waypoint plots before buying the other side.
It's an excellent way to watch how the AI moves formations.
After you finish using his method to test and tweak your waypoints then you buy both sides and plot the ones to be used in a scenario

I'd prefer to continue this with posts unless someone objects, I'm sure others have the same questions.
Also folks can jump in with suggestions or corrections as needed.

99 is the default reaction setting if you don't go in and alter it.
Setting react to 1 just insures the formation will attempt to move turn 1, thus follow the waypoints you set up for it.
If in fact setting it to 98 fixes a unit in place for the duration of a scenario IOU a kiss! This has long been one of my big headaches.

[Double_Deuce]

Some more Reaction Turn info here;

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...light=reaction

[Imp]

Okay a few things from the game guide link I ask again is this right as looking at some campaigns it has not been followed

PLEASE NOTEThe waypoint mechanism requires that any formation that has been assigned a waypoint path MUST have also been assigned a reaction value of 0. This is very important for CAMPAIGN LINKED SCENARIOS

To DD thanks for the link

Suhiir
No, actually if you read what he wrote carefully he suggested TESTING waypoint plots before buying the other side.
It's an excellent way to watch how the AI moves formations.
After you finish using his method to test and tweak your waypoints then you buy both sides and plot the ones to be used in a scenario

If that is the case its a long winded way of doing it to duplicate it you would have to record every waypoint you placed.
It would be far easier to set up both then plot waypoints & save.
Now play as human vs human no password so no need to save unless want.
Do the same trick with AI side set to computer control.
The human side just click end turn & maybe switch off the odd long range weapon.
Its got to be faster overall.

I bought my entire human side after did waypoints cross attached it & modified 2 units without the waypoints disapearing. Then changed force again slightly twice without problem, saved & checked at each stage.
Mind you I only did 2 turns test to see if waypoints still work but the paths still show.
If I adjust anything on the AI side they vanish.

Was using the fact that player side did not seem to effect waypoints to make minor force adjustments to balance without having to start over.
It seems I have just been lucky but this is why I questioned this & hence am questioning reaction zero requirement as people seem to ignore even in campaigns.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Imp

I bought my entire human side after did waypoints cross attached it & modified 2 units without the waypoints disapearing. Then changed force again slightly twice without problem, saved & checked at each stage.
Mind you I only did 2 turns test to see if waypoints still work but the paths still show.
If I adjust anything on the AI side they vanish.

Congratulation, you got lucky. The reason we added the warning to the GG is because sometimes you won't and we cannot predict with 100% certainty when you won't. It *MAY* be that code changes we have made in other areas has altered this behaviour in some way. If so, this is a good example of subtle " unintended consequences" in coding and WHY we really don't like to muck about with the code much any longer.


As you have discovered waypoints are a bit of a black art that few master. Pyros did and wrote extensivly about it and we put it in the game guide. My suggestion for "waypoint newbies" is to NOT try to get too creative with them on your first attempt. ( they are great for random "patrols" where you don't want the same hting happening time after time when a sceanrio is replayed )

It's like calculus in some ways, some people get it and some don't and some get it with practice. Until we increased the number of waypoints allowed it was more a curiosity than anything really useful and increasing the waypoints and allowing players to experiment was, at the time ( and still is ) a more viable option than tearing it all apart and redoing it from scratch so that waypoints don't disapear until your units actually cross them but changing that now would destroy all the existing sceanrios and campaigns that use the existing arcane system. ( which is the perfect word to describe waypoints in the game----Known or understood by only a few )

Don

[Double_Deuce]

Originally Posted by DRG

Congratulation, you got lucky. The reason we added the warning to the GG is because sometimes you won't and we cannot predict with 100% certainty when you won't. It *MAY* be that code changes we have made in other areas has altered this behaviour in some way. If so, this is a good example of subtle " unintended consequences" in coding and WHY we really don't like to muck about with the code much any longer.

Just to echo the unpredictability, I have set up waypoints in scenarios for campaigns and at timers they work really well, doing almost exactly what I want the units to do. Then with other scenario's, it just doesn't want to work no matter how many times I redo them. I have wasted many design days trying to get it right on some when it just doesn't seem to do what I want. Maybe if I built a spreadsheet with Pyros' calculations based on unit speed, terrain, etc., I could change that, but for me, thats way too much work to invest in what I still consider a hobby. If I got that serious, burnout would surely follow. Thats exactly why I removed SPWAW from my HD years ago and have never reloaded it.

[Imp]

Does look like someone has smiled on me for a change & yes as said previosly to ambitious at start need to just get basics & then (possibly) work up.
As DD said they do seem to have a mind of there own at times you plot a few & all works great. By jove think I have got it then you end up scratching your head as the next lot do there own thing.
Starts to become a challenge I will beat this damn machine
With a big stick if neccesary.

Cheers for updating ANZAC link DD awesome work thats some serious dedication the team put in there.
Cheers for all input will get back to playing when I have time

[DRG]

"unpredictability" is inherent in the basic design and we have added to that constantly since we started working with the code.

There are ( literally ) over 3500 instances in each games code where "random" is a factor in some way whether it's a random chance that if a random generated number is greater than 50 then the AI will purchase a a particular formation in a specific date range or a 33% chance an entirely different formation will be bought for that date range and those randomizers extend throughout the game ( including unit movement ) to ensure AI behaviour isn't predictable so it's no surprise at all that sometimes the code will override the waypoints as the basic waypoint code does not , in all cases, take precedence over the code we've put in place to prevent predictable AI behaviour or how the AI reacts to ever changing game events initiated by the human player. To put this in perspective, the SP2 code "only" has 1145 occurences of "random" so we've tripled the "random factor" in the game.



Don