Zen and the art of Thugging

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by Baalz

The point of this guide is that if you limit yourself (as many people seem to) to thinking a thug has to have a frost brand and a vine shield and a bunch of hitpoints, you're missing a whole aspect of the game.

Where did I say you have to limit yourself to a Frost Brand and Vine Shield? Thats taking my point ad absurdem. I just said “for raiding PD it is hard to beat the humble Frost Brand”. In your original post when you tried to compare things to Brands IIRC you reference the Flame Brand which costs 7 and requires 2 paths to forge – which I agree is expensive. But a Frost Brand can be just as good and costs 3 with only one path. And I tried to point out an aspect of the Brand that might be neglected – having 50 of CR (or FR) is enough to eliminate the fatigue penalty in extreme temperature scale provinces.

Of course there are times when you may need Water gems for other things. I guess I need to caveat everything with the phrase “may not apply in all situations” in order to avoid you taking the extreme case. But I generally find W gems the least useful of gems (again there are obviously times when this may not be the case). But I was making the point of relative cost and (many times, not always) find, say Earth, in shorter supply and thus relatively worth more. I can cite all sorts of spells that require those types of gems (eg for earth, Hammers, Crumble, Earth Attack, Mechanical Men, Earth Kings...) but obviously the player must decide themself what has the least opportunity cost.

Originally Posted by Baalz

You using your pretender to forge those frost brands? They're not nearly that cheap if you are. In a very real sense 10E can be cheaper than 5W, and 10W on turn 30 can be cheaper than 5W on turn 10.

Again, of course using your pretender to forge Frost Brands is more expensive than using some non-cap only mage. I mean if you want to use that to argue 10E is cheaper than 5W because you need to use your pretender, then I can just do the same and say using your pretender to forge any item you suggest is more expensive than a W item. It is sort of ridiculous.

Again on the Vine Shield, its almost always easier to forge than the Shield of Gleaming Gold (Con 4 vs. Con 6 and only requires Nature – the easiest path to get through indies, although admittedly getting N2 might be a challenge but overall is less difficult then getting E+F if you start w/o either). And again,in talking about raiding PD/taking indies, I think the Vine Shield works much better than Awe for the reasons I cited - basically high morale PD/national troops are more common than high Str PD/national troops (again there are exceptions as I am sure you will rush to point out).

I am not trying to discourage innovation, only pointing out the Frost Brand is pretty cheap for what you get and the vine shield is often better than the Shield of Gleaming Gold. Not in all cases.

[MaxWilson]

I am not trying to discourage innovation, only pointing out the Frost Brand is pretty cheap for what you get and the vine shield is often better than the Shield of Gleaming Gold. Not in all cases.

And of course Vine Shield + Shield of Gleaming Gold works even better, since if Awe stops them they still get entangled. Put it on a Poison Golem w/ Stygian Wings (also supplies Flying and Fear). And at this point Baalz rightfully yells "Stop! You just spent 75 gems to create a thug. Is that really cost-effective or are you mindlessly optimizing for performance? Could you still raid the same provinces with a Bane Lord with a Ring of Regen and an S1 mage to cast Body Ethereal and Luck on him? How about two national recruitables with Slave Matrixes and a communion master with a Fire Bola casting Summon Earthpower/Ironskin/Personal Luck/Astral Shield/Fire closest?" This is the Zen of thugging.

But I agree, if you want to talk about particulars, Frost Brand is often cheap and a nice item.

-Max

[rdonj]

I tried using hand of death against llamabeast in the warhammerama game... it took out a large chunk of health but 60 or so damage doesn't quite cut it on a 300 hp cyclops. Still, against anything reasonable that would have more than sufficed.

[Aezeal]

Well you don't get a weapon much cheaper than the frostbrand for it's effect that is one thing (Don Corazon is right there) on the other hand I thought Baalz point was that while some weapons are cheap (say frostbrand) quiet a few thugs don't even need that weapon to still be able to rout PD or hurt armies.

[chrispedersen]

fists of iron
farstrike under 1.3

[Gandalf Parker]

What are some "generic" thugs? Summons possibly that would be generally recognized as thug chassis.

[MaxWilson]

Because thugs need to be gem-cheap, they're more likely to be recruitable units (which cost only gold) than summons. Still, avoiding national summons and sticking to generic only (and leaving off uniques):

Banes and Bane Lords come to mind. Vampires and Vampire Counts. Troll Kings and to a lesser extent Sea Kings. Llamia queens. Spectres. The mages you get from Unfrozen or Hidden in Snow don't usually make great thugs because they're #noheal, but with enough lifedrain that may not matter. Golems and poison golems. MAYBE Fairy Queens but I've never tried it (low HP will probably be fragile, but she's a thug not an SC right?). Firbolg Sleepers.

Wraith Lords may be thugs or light SCs. Tartarians are cheap enough to use as thugs if you have GoH up.

That's all I've got from memory. There's probably some blood and nature chassises that I've missed. Death obviously has the best summonable chassises of the ones I can remember, but Troll Kings aren't bad.

-Max

[Gandalf Parker]

Thanks. Those will work well into a new song Im thinking of.

[MaxWilson]

I am the very model of a cheap generic thuggable,
I've good Protection, high defense, and gemcost nearly neglible;
My built-in gear's a plate hauberk and Bane Blade, which is adequate
For PD which will route if you can only make them hurt a bit.
I'm zero enc (like most undead) and rarely take a critical hit
I benefit tremendously from a simple lucky amulet,
I have the slots to use whatever gear that you can forge for me,
From Winged Boots to Aegis or a Vine Shield to a Brand or three.

I've resistances respectable, most Hydras find me affable,
A Niefel Giant's cold aura to me is merely laughable.
In short in matters economic, tactical, and Bog-beast huggable[1]
I am the very model of a cheap generic thuggable!

-Max

[1] Can't leave out the Bog Beast love. Besides, none of the other rhymes I thought of made any sense either. And the scansion is terrible. If you want GOOD poetry go read Poe or Kiping: http://www.wargames.co.uk/Poems/Grave.htm

[Gandalf Parker]

MUCH better than mine. Add it to the Song thread please.

All I had was: "little bunny foo foo"
Poison Golem FooFoo
Running thru the forest
Scooping up the infantry
And bopping them on the head