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  #31  
Old September 6th, 2008, 11:13 AM
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Dedas Dedas is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

Dominions 3: The Awakening of Bureaucracy
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  #32  
Old September 6th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Sombre Sombre is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

By the way, though my response may have seemed negative, I do really appreciate what you're trying to do here Lolo, which is move us /away/ from stupid NAP disputes that plague some games.

So thank you for that :]
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  #33  
Old September 6th, 2008, 02:20 PM

chrispedersen chrispedersen is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epaminondas View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sombre View Post
I would never agree to this NAP. It's far too restrictive.
And too detailed. Who would read 3-plus pages of legalese to play a damn game? Jesus...
Ok - but these kind of comments do nothing to add to the conversation for those of us that would and do.

In actuality, once convention is set, people will just say "he wants an I-nap +5. Cool. Terms are known, and with a sticky can be referred back to.
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  #34  
Old September 6th, 2008, 08:05 PM

Zeldor Zeldor is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

Most of the community probably defines standard NAP differently when it comes to that small points.

I think most people will agree that 6 is violation [but not always, depends on geography, nations]. 12 is also [when you can prove it]. Dispeling or overwriting your globals may be considered a NAP violation and most people will give other side the right to start war without a notice [but as always, it depends on people].
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  #35  
Old September 6th, 2008, 10:18 PM
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Lingchih Lingchih is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

It all seems pretty standard to me. I follow most of these rules already when I sign NAPs. Except 17 is a little muddy (but it is also a situation I have never run into).

As far as dispelling or overwriting one of my globals. If it is overwritten, so be it. Global are cast to be overwritten at some point. If he dispels it though, that is an act of aggression. Of course, it would difficult to be certain that he was the one that dispelled it, unless he tells me.
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  #36  
Old September 7th, 2008, 04:46 PM

chrispedersen chrispedersen is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

NAP-X Alternate
(using Lolo I-Nap template).

1. This thread is intended to standardize what constitutes a NAP-X option R, so the terms are understood by all parties and so all conventions don't have to be rewritten each time an agreement is made.

Additionally, this is an attempt to codify what is acceptable behavior under the terms of a NAP.

2. NAP-X Option R is an agreement between players, not between nations.

3. Definition of Nation: All provinces uncontestedly owned by a pretenders units.

Establishment of owned: A province is owned when a province has had military units in it for one or more turns entirely exclusively by the owning player.

Should two parties both enter a province in the same turn, then ownership is not established, regardless of the outcome, as units were not in exclusive control for an entire turn.

Duration of Interest:
Should a nation have established ownership of a province, said ownership persists, up to 1 turn for each turn of ownership up to three.

For Example:
Arco and Ermor have signed a NAP-3 Opt R.

On turn Two, Arcosephale invades the Holy Lands, and successfully conquers the province.

On turn 3, with no other action, ownership is established.

On turn 5, with 2 turns of ownership (3 & 4), a barbarian horde invades and conquers the territory. Arco's ownership of the province persists for two turns, eg., 6 and 7. Ermor may take no action during these turns.

However, should arco fail to act during these turns, Ermor is free to conquer the province on turn 8.

4. This NAP restricts both parties from making any Military attacks or IDENTIFIABLE spell attacks on each other.

5. Additionally, neither party may introduce stealthy units into areas of the others nation, without prior notification and permission.

However, if the subject country is the shortest transit time to other countries, permission will not be denied.

6. In addition, the following global spells in the current DOM3 version 3.20 form are restricted:

Burden of Time, Arcane Nexus, Strands, Wish for Armageddon,
Forge of the Ancients, Utter Dark, Astral Corruption.
Fill in other globals here: ___________________________________

7. Dominion:

Because Dominion spread is *not* under the control of players dominion incursion in itself is not considered a violation of a NAP.

However, establishing temples, preachers, prophets etc with the intent to project dominion into a signators territory *is* an act of agression and the following protocols are observed.

Neither side may establish a temple in a province adjacent to a signators province without a castle, nor may he station more than one preaching unit (prophet and God excepted) UNLESS said province is under foreign domination.

So, for example: Arco & Ermor are Napped. Ermor may not establish temples in a border province in order to establish dominion (and kill population) UNLESS ermor's territory is already under foreign dominition.

AKA: its ok to defend your dominion, it isn't ok to project it.

8. Termination: The NAP can only be “terminated” after the other party has been given notice. The termination notice has to be given in the same way that it was signed, that is, if it was signed through the Shrapnel forums, or through email, or through an ingame message, the termination notice has to be given through the same channel. There are two forms of this Inviolate NAP: NAP-X, and NAP till turn X.

NAP-X: You can not order an attack until the Xth turn from notification of termination. The actual battles will be fought on turn X+1. For forum and email notifications, the current turn is counted as the first turn if the notification is sent 24 hours before the current turn hosts. If the notification is sent less than 24 hours before the current turn hosts, the next turn is counted as turn 1. For ingame notifications, the turn the message is received is counted as the first turn.

**** Option R: With this option, the recipient of the notice of termination may attack immediately without waiting for X turns. For example, you can specify NAP-3 Option R. This will give the terminated party the possibility of a first strike. This option is inspired by chrispedersen’s thread here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40413

NAP till turn X: You can not order an attack until turn X. The actual battles will be fought on turn X+1.

Some common questions and clarification regarding this type of NAP, in the absence of any specific agreements to the contrary:

9-10: Left Blank.

11. He has traded equipment/given gold/given gems to my enemy. Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No.
12. He has overcast my global! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? Yes.
13. He has dispelled my global! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? Yes.
14. He has contributed gems to a nation that used those gems to overcast my global! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No.
15. He is one victory point away from winning! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement and can I attack him without proper termination of the NAP? No.

However, feel free to include a Closeness to Victory exception.
For example: If either party is ____ VP's from victory, the agreement becomes null and void.

16. He has built temples and stationed a thousand preachers in his provinces all along our border! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? Yes
17. His dominion will completely snuff out my dominion next turn causing me to be eliminated from the game! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement and can I attack him without proper termination of the NAP?

Not unless the provisions of section 7 have been violated.

18. He has provoked all the other nations in the game to attack me! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No.
19. He has blocked all my available province expansion routes! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No.
20. He has violated the terms and conditions I have attached to the signing of the NAP! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? YES!
21. He has hired someone to cast damaging spells against me! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No.
22. He has cast an ANONYMOUS damaging/assassination/unrest causing spell against me! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement?

It is against the spirit of the agreement. However, as authorship of these events cannot be determined, no right to terminate the agreement is established.

However, should the offending player acknowledge such, then the termination provisions are established.
13. He has cast a global that damages/harms/kills my units/provinces/income that are under his dominion! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? See the list of prohibited Globals above.
14. He has cast a global that damages/harms/kills my units/provinces/population/income that are under my own dominion! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement?
See the list of Prohibited Globals above.
15. I have caught his stealthy preachers in my provinces! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? YES.
16. I have caught his stealthy units with the bane venom charm in my provinces! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? YES!
17. He is attacking me without proper termination of the NAP because I’m attacking a nation he has a mutual defense treaty with! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? YES!
18. He is going to win next turn for whatever reason! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement and can I attack him without proper termination of the NAP? No. Not unless the victory exception (see termination) is agreed to at inception.
19. He has contributed gems to fund a global that harms me (for example, Thetis Blessing)! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No.
20. He has cast Forge of the Ancients! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? I’m a water nation and he has cast Thetis’ Blessing! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No. See list of Global Exceptions.
21. He has summoned all the Elemental Kings/Queens and has forged all the Artifacts! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No.
22. He has received a random event that gave him control of one of my provinces! No. However building PD, troops, or castles, OR stationing troops there *is* a violation of the agreeement while your ownership persists.
23. His Tartarian with 6 artifacts that was banished to kokytos suddenly reappeared and took control of my province! Is this a violation of the NAP agreement? No, see #22.
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  #37  
Old September 8th, 2008, 02:01 PM

Ironhawk Ironhawk is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

I stopped reading after rule 4 just cause I saw how many rules there were. I would never agree to something like this just on principle. Who wants to go back and read a list of rules about what you can and cannot do? This is a GAME after all, folks! If you try and write out and proscribe everything that can and can not be done then it will become as dry and boring as real life.

Honestly guys, just use your heads on what is and isnt good play. And at the same time, accept that everyone is unique and there will occassionally be conflicts. Its as simple as that.
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  #38  
Old September 8th, 2008, 03:58 PM
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Dedas Dedas is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

You said it Ironhawk!

In my opinion this game is all about conflicts and their brutal resolution; there can only be one winner after all. If you can't stand that fact you shouldn't be playing. And after all what is the big deal about losing? You can always play again.
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  #39  
Old September 8th, 2008, 06:08 PM

chrispedersen chrispedersen is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedas View Post
You said it Ironhawk!

In my opinion this game is all about conflicts and their brutal resolution; there can only be one winner after all. If you can't stand that fact you shouldn't be playing. And after all what is the big deal about losing? You can always play again.
You know Dedas..

I've heard your comments - and your insults - all on all thre threads. And I've been polite up to now. I understand your point of view.

Using your language..

If you can't stand that other people have different points of view than you do... then quit reading. If you have nothing positive to contribute - then you probably shouldn't be reading this thread.

Which is a lot more polite than what I'd really *like* to say.
This thread has nothing to do with 'having only one winner'. None of us have made a big deal out of losing.

We get that you don't get it.

We get that you are hostile to the idea.

Now, can you just man up - and exercise a little bit of toleration and let others do what they want to do without finding it necessary to insert your .02?
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  #40  
Old September 9th, 2008, 02:22 AM
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Dedas Dedas is offline
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Default Re: Inviolate NAP, First Draft

Now look here!

If I have insulted anyone for real I apologize. That was not my wish.

As for voicing my opinion I can only say that this is a forum - get used to it.

But I will respect your wish and leave this thread, as continuing will only lead into a pointless flame war.

Oh, and this is no parting shot. If you have anything more to say to me I will be around as usual.

Cheers!
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