Opinions on Caelum (MA and other)

[PyroStock]

There is a definite need for more wraparound maps.

Yes, please More wrap arounds.

I'd love to see "wraparound" as a random map feature.

This.

//I haven't tried Caelum yet.

[Kuritza]

Its weak.

Troops are just bad. Archers are ok, though not stellar (shortbows). Infantry is crap. Mammoths are good, but lategame they are quite counterable. No reliable meat shield.
Mages - not stellar. High seraphs are ok with thunderstrike, but regular seraphs are so-so, even when orb lighting is researched. Lightning doesnt even reliably kill 1 regular unit anymore, quickness doesnt allow to shoot them twice per turn, etc etc.
Raiding - who said raiding?.. Decent flying infantry troops have movement 2 (not 3), take hellish amount of time to amass and dont fight that well. In fact, they die rather easily and rout all the time. And due to the fact they arent stealthy they are also vulnerable to teleporting and cloud trapezing responses, as well as global spells.
Magic paths diversity - poor. Just 2 paths, both inefficient against SC's and thugs. Also, Caelum has difficulties equipping SCs and thugs itself. There are no AOE lightning weapons, and cold AOE doesnt hurt undead, constructs etc.

So, bad troops, average mages, little sound lategame strategies I can think of. I'd rate Caelum as one of the worst nations atm.

[Aethyr]

Although I don't agree with Kuritza, I think Caelum is not as powerful as it was in DOM2, and that making the High S. capitol only is not the way to go.

On the other hand, while I'd be concerned about making them too powerful, I've always wondered, thematicaly, why they don't have a blessable unit that flys...

[quantum_mechani]

MA Caelum is not as weak as you make it out to be, it is true it doesn't have all that many possible angles in the early game, but what options it does have are very powerful. And it's true they can be screwed later on if they fail to diversify, but that's true of almost everyone.

The thing about raiding with Caelum is you really do have to just about ignore the flying infantry. Build your raid groups instead out of mages and archers, with decoy archers spread around. 20-30 archers and 1-2 mages properly deployed can deal with most reasonable PD.

They also have a lot of other little bonuses, virtual immunity to unrest from spies, extra points from cold 3, a mage with a forge bonus, flying scouts, ashema spentas for late game.

[Sir_Dr_D]

It sounds to me like the infantry need to get fixed up. Giving them +4 defence might do it. You want them powerfull enough so that they don't get killed so easy, but still weaker then other infantry. The slight weakness would be made up for by flying.

I have never played caelum in multiplayer, but if I did I would want to use the flying infantry.That is what is supposed to make Caelum unique. If Instead of using flying units you are forced to use mammoths, then a lot of the appeal of that nation is gone.

Personally from a themantic percpective I think that the high seraph should be capital only, flying infantry made stronger, and mammoths made slower.Mammoths should not be feared as much as elephants. They should be a strategic option that is handy at times, such as Pythiums Hydra, and not the only viable strategy.

[quantum_mechani]

+4 defense doesn't make a lot of sense by itself, you have to ask where it is coming from. If it's to represent the fact they fly, it would have to be added to every flying unit, most of which are already among the best in the game.

[Sir_Dr_D]

The +4 defense can be attributed to combination of being able to fly, of have extra brid like agility, and having gone through extensive training on how to make use of their agility and do hit and run tactics. Other flyers simpl;y woudn't have that same agility and training.

I see caelum ifantry as being very good at staying out of harms way until they see a momment to strike. I don't see units like draconians, angels or devils doing that.

[quantum_mechani]

Sir_Dr_D said:
The +4 defense can be attributed to combination of being able to fly, of have extra brid like agility, and having gone through extensive training on how to make use of their agility and do hit and run tactics. Other flyers simpl;y woudn't have that same agility and training.

I see caelum ifantry as being very good at staying out of harms way until they see a momment to strike. I don't see units like draconians, angels or devils doing that.

Well, that's well and good, but I know from working with IW that they don't generally like just tweaking troop stats like that. It would pretty much have to fall into the catagory of a cross the board racial ability, extra training (which would mean higher gold cost) and a good reason why even the lowliest soldiers have it, or a some kind of equipment bonus.

And to be honest, I'm not sure 4 more defense would be enough to tempt me on most of the infantry anyway.

[Saint_Dude]

The stats for the Caelum infantry are not great to begin with, but flight just makes them suck.

They rush into battle where they are exposed to concentrated fire. They fatigue out very rapidly, making their sup-par stats simply abysmal. And when they inevitably take the heavy losses that they have coming to them, they fly away. Which means if you are playing Caelum and win a battle with an army that included infantry in its ranks, you are likely to be without any infantry for a follow up assault. You are constantly having to go back and round the cowardly infantry from all surrounding friendly provs.

The elite Caelum infantry make descent bodyguards, but that is about it.

[Kuritza]

How about another land-based infantry unit for Caelum? Not as defenseless as Wingless, not as resource-heavy as sacreds. Paul Anderson described such unit in the War or the Wing Men, when that trader convinced the Wing Men that controlling the ground is just as important as controlling the skies.
Some bulky non-ice armor that prevents flying (and can be mass-produced), like standard chainmail or scale mail, and a tower shield. Such warriors can make big 'jumps' thus moving faster than average, but they wont fly. Read what Quantum says - 'ignore the flying infantry'; exactly, it can be ignored. A nation needs some infantry that can fullfil its purpose.
And in my opinion, cheaper Caelum mages (1W, 2A 1W) are baaaaaaaaaaad. As it is now, Caelum depends on mages heavily, so I think making their only real battlemage capitol-only will cripple an already average nation.