LOS and spotting

[badger45]

evan,

88 mm guns in the open... I set up in editor a sample position (meeting engagement) of 4 guns in the basic flat green terrain and advanced against them german infantry platoon (one hex per turn, the slowest speed at which they are best spotting). They discover the 88s at 400 to 350 metres. Flak gunners discovered the infantry at the same time, but too late to open fire (though I ordered them to fire on anything within 1000 metres).

Now take russian rifle platoon. First russian squad was discovered at 500 metres. two others at 450 m, last one at 400 m. Advancing russian rifle platoon still sees nothing no wonder). Two turns pass, before the best experienced squad (exp 60) saw suddenly 3 of 4 88s at range of 300-350 metres. He was the last one that moved that turn, the previous guys under exp 60 were still blind, though they are only 300 metres from the guns. Moreover, I ordered the gunners not to fire until 50 metres in order to avoid demasking effects of firing.

And now, take russian scouts and do the same. At 300 metres they discover all four guns, while the germans stilll see nothing. Just out of curiosity I continued the advance of the scouts. They were discovered at 200 metres two turns later.

What is my point:
1] spotting the barn 88 is not difficult, if your troops have the same experience and size 1 (normal squad, not conscripts or cavalry).

2] spotting the barn 88 with size 0 units (scouts and smaller than squad units) is not difficult even when you are exp 55 and the enemy 75.

Things that ruin your spotting -
a] move more than one hex per turn
b] scout with big units
c] use unexperienced troops

First two points make you easy to be spotted (and if you get under fire from unspotted enemy, you are not good scout).

The second helps your spotting. The more experience, the further you see. (German Para scouts can spot the 88 at 450 metres). Important thign is, that even the runnig conscript will spot the 88 at 250 metres! Therefore, there is no way to easily hide the 88 in the open and the game comes here very close to reality, judging from my experience.

Years ago, we had to hide D-30 howitzers used as battalion antitank reserve - you just have to dig half meter in the ground. In case of 88 may be a meter or so. After that the gun is just about meter above terrain. Meter at 500 m is the same to spot as 1 mm at 50 cm range.

Therefore I think, the game is just OK. If anything, it spots very predictably and quite well compared to reality. I witnessed a motor rifle squad digging into ground hundred meters away from battery of D-30s, not knowing we are there (though we were not precisely in the open, but at the edge of forest).

regards,
badger45

[evan]

badger45 said:

I witnessed a motor rifle squad digging into ground hundred meters away from battery of D-30s, not knowing we are there (though we were not precisely in the open, but at the edge of forest).

regards,
badger45

I hope they where friendlies; for their sake.
evan

[Warwick]

Hi Don,
Would you be thinking of Dr. Alessandro Bonnani? I can't remember his handle exactly but I think it rhymes with "banker"<g>

Regards, Warwick

[Sgt_Walrus]

Hi Evan

You may want to think about playing against some humans that are willing to share a little knowledge.
Perhaps you should have a look at

www.theblitz.org

There is a strong SP ladder there that plays PBEM and there is also a mentor programme that can be very helpful when you are at the beginning of your time with the game.

Once you have experienced PBEM, you'll have delved into the full spectrum of what SP CAMO Steel Panthers has to offer.

After all the work that Don and Andy, and all the testers and posters and players,have put into these games over the last 9 years, the AI is now very good.

However, human opponents are on another level.

It's great fun playing the campaigns and scenarios, don't get me wrong, but knowing that you are slowly tearing apart the forces belonging to someone on the other side of the planet is quite a different level of fun.

Just a thought bro.
Cheers
SGT

[dlazov]

Warwick,

Yes Wanker something or other.

Thanks!

Has he been around here lately?

Your handle sound familar.

There was also Neuman, Richard, Jon Cassino (taught me how to hide), and Ed M.

[MajorDisaster]

Interesting experiment and good points too (wish I had the time to have tried something like it). Scouts seem to be a Must Have item, (saved a lot of pain soemtimes, but I find it tricky keeping them alive, especially in forests etc, when it's just too easy to stumble into an unfriendly unit. etc). Funny how fewer pairs of eyes are better at spotting though :-) On the otherhand I guess they dont crunch around like full infantry sections so dont get detected so easy themselves.
I can see your point about 88's etc.. on Defend/Assault missions cos theyre dugin and in prep'd positions, but on delay/advance type they're not supposed to be, or I got that wrong? Anyhow, as you illustrate, it seems that if your grunts can survive the first few battles and get experience they get much hotter at spotting stuff. It's just a question of surviving that long :-)

[serg3d]

In attack/advance I just send forward cavalry screen to draw enemy fire and detect enemy presence. After that I dismount infantry from tanks/trucks and move it forward to do actual spotting. Of cause that is intention, reality is usually more messy.

[Warwick]

Hi Don,
Sorry for the delay in reply, I've been around since 2001 on and off. Do you remember Jerry Sindle? He made some really good posts, also troopie who is still around I think.

Regards, Warwick

[badger45]

I can see your point about 88's etc.. on Defend/Assault missions cos theyre dugin and in prep'd positions, but on delay/advance type they're not supposed to be, or I got that wrong?

Dug-in status is for troops in well prepared positions, and accordingly it is more difficult to spot (not covered in my example). I fear I don't have much experience with such positions, as most of our exercises were about hastily prepared posts - you had usually hour or two to prepare, which is something the game does not refer to as dug-in. Therefore these hasty positions are in-game "Ready, not moving" you encounter in all but assault-defend missions. My point was, that it is quite possible to conceal 2m high At gun even if you have only quarter or half an hour. We usually used dozers - don't know what used Germans in WW2, but I suppose, they did not rely on muscles only

Regarding "must have" scouts: they do NOT spot better, regardless their name (if I am wrong, hope DRG or Mobhack say it). They are just small infantry teams (size 0), like MGs, AT teams or snipers. Their main advantage over these is the combination of 4 man, high speed and low costs.

The last point is not so pronounced in SPWW2, but it gets more importance later in the SPMBT. 4 man insure it much higher probability of surviving in face of random attack and their high speed allows them to move quickly over safe areas. So you can in fact use snipers, but you cannot afford ANY encounter, you can use MGs, but you will be ALLWAYS slowed down to movement 4 (e.g one hex in snow), you can use AT teams, but be prepared to half more or double the costs (for no effect, as you don't want to fight anyway ).

To put the scouts into perspective of example. Last battle I fought Germans in December 1941 with crap company of 12 BT tanks, platoon of scouts, FO and battalion of 152 mm cannon howitzers. Germans deployed to the objective a rifle company and wild mix of PzIIIH, Pz-II, Lt-38 and two two armored cars. A total of about twenty vehicles with infantry loaded on them.

My BT tanks had transported the scouts and FO quite quickly through the safe zone (meeting engagement), where they dismounted to positions about 400-500 meters around objective, so as to have nice look at approach lines. Germans arrived due to their low mobility later (I gave them no hint, I am there, by leaving the objective unoccupied). I could see all of the German advance, plot artillery mission to suitable place and prepare my tanks, so that they envelop the expected enemy position and could 'pop up' after first shell land (pop up, i.e. move one hex, shoot one round at a time, at the end go back). All gone well (rare occasion) and after the artillery laid a concentrated fire of 80 shells, suppressing almost all enemy units, I popped up carefully with the BT tanks, killed what I could, and hide again. This continued for three turns. Arty burned two wehicles and wiped out some infantry, the rest being finished by my tanks. Enemy managed to get some lucky shots and killed two BTs (had I T-34, there would be no losses). Scouts proved absolutely vital to a mission. Without them I would 1] had no clue where to fire the arty and where to hide the tanks, 2] could not avoid tank to tank engagement (I used different firing directions, forcing his tanks to turn around a lot and almost always shooting his 'back' - had it been head to head, he would burn me in one turn). As this task group was just about the only task group of Germans, it routed his entire force. Easy victory.

If I had regular infantry there, I may have been spotted (not to mention, that BT and later light tanks like T-60 cannot load them). AT teams were not usable (tanks were accompanied by infantry). At least one sniper would die (friendly arty).MGs would have trouble to move after dismounting (I had to cross about six or seven hexes, turns out as 3 turns more, i.e. loosing the time used to prepare ambush).

Keeping the scouts alive is a challenge, but not that high, unless you play assault mission. I tend to keep the scouts on flanks of formations, rarely using them on main battle tanks or in advance of my main group. Rather I send them forward but on the less obvious paths and adjust the battle plan accordingly to what they spot. BTW the above example was preceded by four battles where I did not guess in advance, what would be the main attack axis, and all four times a flanking scouts saved the day, allowing me to change the direction of my own attack to suit enemy 'needs'

Regards,
badger45

BTW quite a long post... sorry

[dlazov]

Warwick, Yes I remember Troopie, not sure on Jerry, heres the list I vaguely remember chatting and gaming with

Warwick
dlazov
Ed Mortimer
Jon Cassino
Carp
richard854xxx
mk
Zaphoid Beelte Bock
Wonderstuck
Pat Gilland
wwpanzerdk
Dan Combs
Blazejoes & Leopald Leo (da pair...)
carlfinkinstien
B&GStag
Burges

And so on.

good post gone by...