Broken Nations

[KissBlade]

DominionsFan said:

I also agree that van/hel are the best uber bless nations in EA. The problem is that you can prepare yourself against uber bless builds in a duel of course, but it is impossible to tell that what will player XY gonna use in a team or FFA game. So if you choose to start with an "anti bless" build there, it might be a bad choice overall, hence you will skip some otherwise very effective blitz builds.

Not really, general experience from blitzes have shown me that you need to factor in some sort of counter against uber blesses whether it be a thug pretender to counter raid, expanding in the right direction while leaving a good buffer of heavy cavs in the way or rushing up to some battle magic. Very effective blitz builds are those that focuses upon early expansion and a strong early mid game development through battlemages and archer/xbow flocks and tough screens. Most strategies aren't impossible to predict, 9/10 of every blitz player who picks a bless worthy nation is going to dual bless. When I see Mictlan in a lineup, I ALWAYS try to prepare for a f9 at the very least. If I see niefelheim, I'll always try to counter regen. If I encounter a good Helheim/Vanheim player, well ... I'll spam GANG VAN! =)

[DominionsFan]

KissBlade said:

Not really, general experience from blitzes have shown me that you need to factor in some sort of counter against uber blesses whether it be a thug pretender to counter raid, expanding in the right direction while leaving a good buffer of heavy cavs in the way or rushing up to some battle magic. Very effective blitz builds are those that focuses upon early expansion and a strong early mid game development through battlemages and archer/xbow flocks and tough screens. Most strategies aren't impossible to predict, 9/10 of every blitz player who picks a bless worthy nation is going to dual bless. When I see Mictlan in a lineup, I ALWAYS try to prepare for a f9 at the very least. If I see niefelheim, I'll always try to counter regen. If I encounter a good Helheim/Vanheim player, well ... I'll spam GANG VAN! =)

Hehe yeah, you have a good point there, "sadly?" almost everyone will use a dual bless at least in a blitz now. Well they are effective so no wonder..

[Shovah32]

I agree, most builds can fit some sort of anti bless rush into their strategy but it dosnt always work, another reason van/hel have such good bless rushes is that they can raid en mass very well, with good stealth and glamour they can make your capitol the first province they hit (this could be with 50+ f9w9 sacreds you never knew existed), keeping only a few sacreds with a big screen of underpriced glamoured units for defence (hel has an advantage here since flying sacreds lets them keep less back with the same response time).

If the enemy see's you building up defences along your border he can sneak past and hit everything else, if you start building defences from the inside out then he can simply take your outer provinces and get more income to make even more sacreds. Finally, if you build both at the same time either you wont have enough defences anywhere and will be open for attack or else you will have enough defence to last a while but will be lacking in some other area (such as research).

[KissBlade]

Shovah32 said:
I agree, most builds can fit some sort of anti bless rush into their strategy but it dosnt always work, another reason van/hel have such good bless rushes is that they can raid en mass very well, with good stealth and glamour they can make your capitol the first province they hit (this could be with 50+ f9w9 sacreds you never knew existed), keeping only a few sacreds with a big screen of underpriced glamoured units for defence (hel has an advantage here since flying sacreds lets them keep less back with the same response time).

If the enemy see's you building up defences along your border he can sneak past and hit everything else, if you start building defences from the inside out then he can simply take your outer provinces and get more income to make even more sacreds. Finally, if you build both at the same time either you wont have enough defences anywhere and will be open for attack or else you will have enough defence to last a while but will be lacking in some other area (such as research).

You CANNOT defend against a dedicated dual blessed Helheim/Vanheim, you MUST be aggressive. Make alliances, bribe other players, whatever it takes, you have to make sure Hel/Vanheim is pressured on all fronts. Keep a lot of lame commanders with some heavy infantries on hand to keep retaking raided forces while sending raiding forces into his lands. Sailing and flying can make this especially tough and you may even need to clobber indies on the way but the only way you can stop a good van is by countering him.

[Shovah32]

Being aggressive without diplomacy (i know you mentioned it but its not always possible, especially in very early game when people cant find eachother) or your own bless is almost suicide if the van/hel player knows where you are. They will see your rapid expansion (possibly towards them if your very aggressive) as a threat and try to put you down quickly, i guess it could work fairly well with certain pretenders (your little friend the VQ could do very well with fire magic, immortality+fireshield is a fun combo), particularly those with fire resistance but 1v1 a dual bless will almost certainly out aggresion you (although if you think otherwise i will reconsider as i know you have more multiplayer experience with both dom2 and 3 than myself)

[Quietly]

I find it ironic this thread complains about what jotunheim would do vs such an enemy... I (and many others) play jotunheim with a very strong bless strategy, and I'd be very suprised if hel/van could beat my giants early... I'd like someone who plays a good hel/van bless rush to pm me or find me on irc and play a couple small 1on1s to see which nations/blesses really edge out the beginning game, and how much so.

[Cainehill]

I wonder if part of the problem is that there's still a bug with the fire bless? With Dom2 it seemed that a F9 bless _always_ went through defense and also mirror images, as things like F9 blessed centaurs tore through W9 blessed Vans. IIRC, theory was that it was like lifedrain, where side effects took effect even if the attack didn't hit.

[DominionsFan]

Quietly said:
I find it ironic this thread complains about what jotunheim would do vs such an enemy... I (and many others) play jotunheim with a very strong bless strategy, and I'd be very suprised if hel/van could beat my giants early... I'd like someone who plays a good hel/van bless rush to pm me or find me on irc and play a couple small 1on1s to see which nations/blesses really edge out the beginning game, and how much so.

What is your name on IRC? Drop me a message on IRC when you will be online.

[Corwin]

Nerfix said:
I'd say that EA Van and Hel need to be re-evaluated. As of now they are insanely powerful with everything from acces to Blade Wind (the ultimate combat spell in EA) to Air magic (and everyone knows how good it is) to troops that can sneak and are superb in combat.

EA Van troops are not that good IMHO. They don't have van soldiers, and their only sacred troops are kindof weak and costly for their stats.

[Corwin]

KissBlade said:

Nah you don't actually need to. To defend against archers, just deposit lots of archer decoys around the map. Also try to coordinate your attacks so that the bulk of them happen during spring. you get about double the hit points on your w5e's. Plus F9W9 is just way too good to pass up.

Isn't it 1.5 more hitpoints? (18 vs normal 12)