obat36 East Germany

[Smersh]

anyone know why DDR BTR-60/70 aren't given any AP ammo for their 14.7mm guns? without it you can't damage even lightly armoured APCs.

[narwan]

Smersh said:
anyone know why DDR BTR-60/70 aren't given any AP ammo for their 14.7mm guns? without it you can't damage even lightly armoured APCs.

Same for their BRDM-2 variant, btw.

[DRG]

Smersh said:
anyone know why DDR BTR-60/70 aren't given any AP ammo for their 14.7mm guns? without it you can't damage even lightly armoured APCs.

That has been corrected ( as well as the SPW-40P2 )in the V3 OOBs for East Germany and a few others as well

Don

[Smersh]

thanks alot, really nice work guys.

[DRG]

Smersh said:
problem in 1981 OBB for E. Germany:2nd line tanks have a T-55A with a newer gun then the standard tank company's T-55A. The 2nd line version has model 1977 gun, with higher sabot penetration, the standard has a 1960 model gun with lower sabot penetration.

I'd planned to create a post regarding OOB error reporting sometime this weekend but I think I'll use this one as an example right now. This is not in any way meant to dump on "Smersh" because a lot of others do exactly the same thing. I just happened to notice this today so for this example you can all take the "you" to mean YOU.


First off, providing the unit number is mandatory if you think you've found an error with a specific tank in an OOB. Telling me it's a T-55A only wastes my time. There are three T-55's in the EG OOB. I have 92 OOB's in WinSPMBT to look after and 36 more in WinSPWW2. Most people poke around less than a half dozen OOB's so if you want to get a perceived problem fixed then telling me the unit number of the "problem" unit goes a long way to getting it fixed

Smersh said:
"2nd line tanks have a T-55A with a newer gun then the standard tank company's T-55A....."

OK that "second line" tank would be unit 364 . It carries a 100mm D10T 77 gun and has an in service date starting 1980 and runs to 1991. The other T-55 ( that would be unit 9 ) that is in the regular tank companies starts in 1963 and runs to 1979...... hold on......the line tank in service date ends BEFORE the upgraded T-55 goes to the reserve units.

So where's the problem ?

Smersh said:
The 2nd line version has model 1977 gun, with higher sabot penetration, the standard has a 1960 model gun with lower sabot penetration.

Let's look at the other T-55a in service at the same time as the reserve T-55a. That would be unit 329 and it's a CS= CLOSE SUPPORT TANK and it's only finds a home in the CS Tank Co - Available: 01/65-09/90 and the CS Tank Pl - Available: 01/65-09/90. It's primary job is to put HE on targets, it doesn't even HAVE sabot since fighting other tanks is not it's purpose. It has some HEAT rounds for self protection against tanks but it's primary purpose is to support infantry and for that it has nearly double the HE of a "normal" T-55 ands since the HE kill and HEAT penetration are the same for both the model 60 and the model 77 gun/ammo there would be no need to "upgrade" the gun because when we upgrade the gun we are usually upgrading the ammo issued and in this case the only upgrade is to Sabot and the CS tanks are not issued with SABOT.

So this "error" isn't an error at all and every time someone posts an error report like this it's only a matter of time before I ignore them and deal with the ones that give me clear info to work with and don't take big chunk of time to sort out.

The REAL ERROR that NOBODY else caught wasn't that the CS tank has an old gun ( because it's irrelevant to it's purpose ) but that the T-55a that went to reserve status is given the upgraded "gun" ( ammo ) but not given any SABOT rounds to fire

And that's the information I've added to my "future upgrades" list and really, all I needed in that case would have been something like this.......

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
East German OOB unit 364 has an upgraded gun/ammo but has not been given SABOT for that weapon ( weapon 90 )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's something I can find and fix in a minute or two. The first "error message" took 45 minutes to sort out. Guys.... I don't HAVE 45 minutes to spend on every OOB error OK ? If you have something to report make it concise and to the point, give me all the info YOU WOULD NEED if someone was reporting it to you and keep the verbiage to a minimum. I don't want a history lesson.

Now, if you want to report something like "Country X never had tank Y" you better be willing ( cheerfully ) to provide a source I can check because I will always assume the OOB is correct until proven wrong. If you know they never had a vehicle then you know where to find the proof. Don't expect me to take your word for it unless you are willing to back up what you say. If you do not want to back it up expect the report to be ignored

Some of the existing OOB error reporting threads are getting a little long in the tooth So I will be unsticking them and letting them drift away and I will set up a new thread where errors that are found can be reported

Don

[Smersh]

sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I'll follow the new error reporting format, next time I post about an OBB problem.

the East German OBB has both 2nd line tank formations and CS tank formations. (both are CS-MBT unit class, but 2nd line tanks carry standard ammo load out)

It's strange too me that the 2nd line version of the T-55A (unit 364) in the 2nd line tank formations, should carry a newer gun, model 1977, then the T-55A (unit 11) in the regualr tank formations which carry a model 1960. common sense would say it should be the other way-round. In this 3 year period between 1980 and 1983, it forces you to have to make an odd decision to chose 2nd line tank units to get a newer T-55A.

one simple solution would be to have unit 11 end in 1980. But this would leave no T-55s in standard tank formations. The only tank avialable would be the T-72

[narwan]

It's not a differrent gun, it's different ammo for the gun. Thye're all 100mm D10T 's. The number following refers to ammo quality. The D10T 60 (weapon 089) has sabot rounds with APCR 24, the D10T 77 (weapon 090) has APCR 30 (better sabot rounds) and the D10T (weapon 091) 79 has APCR 32. It's the same gun each time but with different, newer, ammo.
For the year I checked (1986) the regular companies had 79's, the CS companies a pick from 60's and 79's and the 2nd line companies from 60's and 77's. Seems fine to me?

Narwan

[Smersh]

I think this problem only occurs between in 1980 and 1983. In 12/1983 unit 11 ends avaliablity.

I realize that it just ammo differences but still strange that a 2nd line should have newer ammo then standard formations.

It only a small window where it's a problem but it bothered me when playing a 1981 battle.

[Shan]

mr_clark said:

Hmm I'll to get a look at it. Though I personally don't really like Motorbuch, they're quite biased sometimes. (IV'e got a horrible book on Green Berets from 'em...)

About the book again: Believe me, this one is something different... not that kind of Tom Clancy-Style crap. And it was quite cheap, too.

[Shan]

Unit 718 - 2S3m - introduction was from 1978-1986 (currently available in the game from 01/88!), ammo loadout: 46 grenades (usually 4 of them HEAT);

Unit 39 - SFL M1974 (= 2S1): introduced 1981-1988 (currently 1976)

T-72s: The first 35 were delivered in 1978 (currently available from 01/1973!);

source: as above -

Kopenhagen, Wilfried: Die Landstreitkr�fte der NVA, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart; 2. Auflage, 1999; ISBN 3-613-01943-4