Best summon?

[Blitz]

Glad my topic generated some discussion.

I love wights, but I've never cast legion of wights. By that time I want Wight Lords (whichever the immortal ones are). Even without the jade armor/wraith sword/boots they are awesome. With those toys they are amazing. Legion of Wights is amazing bang for the buck, but by that time I've usually got enough wights.

When playing a death nation, I usually beeline conj 3 and start a monthly wight summon by around turn 8. This costs a lot of death gems, but I think it's worth it. I don't think I've ever seen a wight die to an indy. I've taken knight provinces with just 5 wights on guard commander and a hasted skeleton summoner.

[Master Shake]

I like Enliven statues for the reasons mentioned below - definitely like them more than Clockwork Horrors or Mechanical Men.

One of my Favorites though is Ivy King. Not much of a unit by himself (especially with zero precision), although OK for casting Mass Protection. However, Ivy Kings are great for summon Vine Ogre. I think they get 4 per cast. What a deal for 1 nature gem.

[Wauthan]

Living Statues are indeed superior to Clockwork Horrors. But that's like comparing a vintage vine to fresh grapes. The CH are low on the tech tree on the vital construction school and get maximum result from the lowest possible caster. To get the most out of Enliven Statues you need to research for longer and have such a very powerful earthmage that you can not summon them in many places.

I'm sort of confused about some Posts. Are people talking about the summoned creature they get the best use out of or simply the best possible unit available? Sure the high end spells produce some really powerful monsters but a Tarrasque won't help you at all when you are already struggling against a horde of vinemen in the early game.

[ May 17, 2004, 18:55: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

[LintMan]

I'm a big fan of Ether Warriors, so the discussion vs. Wights was very interesting. I hadn't realized wights were so tough.

I looked up the unit stats to compare them more directly:

code:

---

  

      Wight   EW

Size    2      3

HP     20     22

Prot   22     17

Mor    17     15

MR     14     13   

Enc     0      6   

Str    16     16    

Att    12     13

Def    13     12    

Prec   10     15

Move   3/5    1/15



Other notable stuff:



Wight: 100 CR, 100 PR, undead, Need not eat, chill, Bane blade (6/1/2/2 Decay)



Ether Warrior: Magic being, Ethereal, Moon Blade (11/2/2/3 (x2 dam vs magic beings))

---

So, the stats are close, but the Wight wins or ties on most of them., Prot in particular.

The EW's are size 3, which can be nice vs minotaurs (size 3 tramplers) as I've seen in my current game, but the downside is that means they eat more. The EW's also have much better precision, but I'm not sure what/how much effect that really has. (Anyone know how precision effects melee combat?)

The move stat is interesting. The Wight has a 3 map move, making it speedy to move around the map (terrain willing), but only 5 for combat move. The EW is the opposite, with only 1 map move, but a fairly speedy 15 for combat moves. My armies tend to end up with 1-move units like hoplites in them anyway, so the EW's 1 map move isn't that big a deal, so I'll give the edge to the EW and 15 combat move over the wight's 5 combat move.

For special abilities, the wights have all the usual undead bonuses (and liabilities), plus the chill effect. Chill is nice, but makes it harder to mix them in with regular units, if you aren't going all-undead. EW's are ethereal. it's a tough call for me which is preferable, but I'm thinking ethereal tops undead/chill.

I'm not sure what the Bane blade's decay effect exactly does. I've heard that any units hit with decay will die after combat ends. Is that correct? Is there an MR roll for that? Is there any effect on the decayed unit prior to the end of combat?

Admittedly without fully understanding the bane blade's decay, it seems like the Moon blade is much better - almost twice the regular damage, the x2 vs magical beings, and a longer blade.

All told, the Wight looks pretty darn good, requiring only a 2D caster and 5 death gems. The Legion of Wights spell is a fantastic bargain, but needing a 6D caster and Conj-9 makes that a fairly late-game strategy. Prior to that, needing to summon one at a time is rather slow, but if you make it a monthly ritual, it might not be so bad.

Still, the EW's etherealness, better weapon, and ability to group summon them at a good bit lower level do seem to give them some worthwhile use, even if they are somewhat overpriced, IMHO. And while the Ether Lord isn't an SC, he makes a pretty good combat mage, being pretty hardy, and with access to the awesome nether darts, and the assorted nifty astral spells (ie: enslave mind).

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by LintMan:
(Anyone know how precision effects melee combat?)

It has no effect on melee combat at all.

I'm not sure what the Bane blade's decay effect exactly does. I've heard that any units hit with decay will die after combat ends. Is that correct? Is there an MR roll for that? Is there any effect on the decayed unit prior to the end of combat?

Any unit that is affected by decay or bleed will lose about 1 hitpoint per turn until they are dead. This death can only be prevented once the effect starts through regeneration. There is a MR check on each hit of the weapon to see if the decay effect starts. There may be an increased risk of afflictions associated with decay damage, but I cannot confirm this.

[PvK]

Well one negative for the wight army is that they can get banished. Wights have good MR, but I've seen them get bLasted by banishment. In a whole group of wights, more of the banishment would land on target, too. Of course, mixed with other undead junk, you get a good undead mob going.

Ether warriors can be taken out by things that take care of ethereal magical beings, but those tend to be rarer and more expensive than things that take out undead.

Sort of an apples/oranges issue, after taking the details into account.

PvK

[tinkthank]

I'm a big behemoth fan myself, but if anyone here wouldn't mind helping me out: I have never got Ether Warriors (just never had that many pearls around), and have never cast Wights (since it seems I am usually saving up for Behemoth, or later: Tartarian Gate) -- are they that good? I just dont know them. Also, Graeme, you say they are identical to E.W. but slightly better (no enc) -- are they etheral too?

For higher level summons, I also like the Siege Golem and of course the Abomination (I play a lot of Tien Chi and if I ever make it to Conj 9, basically any CM can cast em at that point (might need a starshine skullcap). For mid levels, I like Sea King's Court (all of a sudden you get a really decent water force which is also ok on land), for low-mid I like Behemoth a lot, for starters I like even Revive King, just because it's free undead commander with decent leadership and I *think* he has a strategic move of 3, and costs next to nothing.

Oh, Faire Queen is also nice higher-level spell if you are not Van or Man or an otherwise really stealthy nation: you get a very decent glamour commander complete with glamour troop who can summon allies too. With equipment she can hold her own, too.

[HotNifeThruButr]

I've never really liked the Damage over time spells, especially when it's on a weapon. When you have a dude in the frontline against Wights, the chances are almost nil that he'll get slain by Decay instead of the normal strength 16 + 6 weapon damage smack.

BTW, I thought Ether Warriors were Ethereal, which counts for a lot. Whereas Wights are 22 prot with 20 HP, think of that as having two Black Plate infantries who have 3 strategic move.

[Vynd]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I've never really liked the Damage over time spells, especially when it's on a weapon. When you have a dude in the frontline against Wights, the chances are almost nil that he'll get slain by Decay instead of the normal strength 16 + 6 weapon damage smack.

True enough. The decay special is probably most effective if the wights get in to hand-to-hand combat with something hefty, like a Titan.

I like the fact that Wights have 0 encumbrance. That'll give them the edge over Ether Warriors in any long battle, I would think. Unless they're fighting an army with a lot of priests... Hehe. Just goes to show that they are both good, but in different ways.