VQ Counters - NO Debates

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
Other ideas:
Blindness

Blindness works off of MR, so is unlikely to stick. Even if it does, it will probably heal within a turn or two. I wouldn't count this as a good counter for any SC, though, due to the difficulty of sticking any MR-based spell on a god chassis.

Paralysis

While not quite as overpowering as it once was, due to the fact that it's no longer permanent, Petrify provides a means of applying irresistable paralysis to anything. It's much easier to put down an SC when it can't move. It helps that the targetting AI is will preferentially target the flying, in-your-face VQ here.

Black Bow of Betulf

Too much of a long shot: The multiple mirror images and/or air shielding of a buffed up SC will make it difficult for an archer firing a single arrow, even with high precision, to successfully hit. If successful, however, this can certainly be supremely annoying, as it may take several turns to be rid that feeblemindedness, during which the VQ will be mostly useless.

the missile weapon that kills in one shot

MR negates. See problems above with anything strictly MR-based.

capturing her home castle

This will certainly put an end to the problem, in conjunction with a strategy to put the VQ down in or out of battle.

unliving summons

Good as part of a one-two punch.

outnumbering with own summoned Vampire Lords

This can work: The lifedraining attacks will affect and fatigue out the VQ, and it appears that lifedrain may still inflict fatigue damage even when it fails to cause physical damage due to protection. It helps that one of you is also immortal. In YOUR dominion, the sheer crush of hundreds of vampires may very well be enough to stop the VQ in its tracks, simply because with all damage shields only of minimal value against the vampires, even if the VQ is powerful enough to slay them with impunity, they won't actually STAY dead, and it will be impossible to kill them all within the 50 turns alotted to you for a battle. Thus, strategically, the VQ always loses this.

Liches and Bog Mummies can do similar things, perhaps better when they have high built-in protection, which can be harder to counter than etherealness

A lich can certainly be tweaked effectively for battle, and his higher base protection will negate the need for ironskin, so he can Body Eth himself in place of ironskin. He also has the benefit of having innate D3, and thus doesn't have wasted blood magic.

magic weapons (bypass ethereal)

Always a helpful option for dealing with any ethereal SC, VQ or not.

Death summons (several relatively cheap and skilled warriors available with magic weapons included and no life for VQ to drain)

Wights, perhaps. VQs tend to do more poorly against undead for the loss of all life-draining options, and the fact that most undead are not susceptible to mass damage shields like BoW or Soul Vortex. Simply burying your opponent under a deluge of them is often adequate to attain strategic victory.

[ May 05, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by archaeolept:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

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Originally posted by Daynarr:
Another way is to use lots of lifeless summons (or units if you can buy them) that she can't drain. After VQ casts buffs, she will have pretty high fatigue - use that to swarm her with lifeless army. Of course, this is not doable at the very start.

It's very unlikely that longdead will be able to do enough damage to her to get through a protection of 20-30, especially if she has a fireshield.

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yeah, and you're lucky if that's all she has. Armor of 30+ would be standard in the full strat by the midgame. defense the same, + fireshield, and, of course, the 5+ mirror images and mistform. I really doubt that masses of fodder undead could do anything to her, though I may be wrong. She is flying, and is likely attacking the rear as well...

as far as counters, other than trying to mimick the VQ formula itself, I take Marignon w/ a Baphomet F9 S9 blessing, and create hordes of flaming fate-twisted flagellants. that works, but is not exactly generally applicable.

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I said lifeless not longdead units. You know, clayman, crushers, wights and such who have a significant number of HP and good attack. VQ defense is not very great and these units will penetrate it often enough to make a difference. Bunch of crappy longdead are not good to handle any SC. A nation with good death magic and gem income has a variety of summons to choose to counter VQ.

Shades are another good and cheap way to get her. Cheap summons with magical weapons and boots of flying should do the job. Being stealthy allows them to surprise attack VQ or hunt her down without her knowing where the danger is.

Basically any SC with boots of flying can kill her.

[Taqwus]

Wights are a bit late, aren't they? Unless there's an earlier Wight summons than Legion of Wights?
Perhaps Weapons of Sharpness should grant the 'magic' flag, unless it already does.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
Other ideas:
Blindness

Blindness works off of MR, so is unlikely to stick. Even if it does, it will probably heal within a turn or two. I wouldn't count this as a good counter for any SC, though, due to the difficulty of sticking any MR-based spell on a god chassis.
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It can be part of a combination of counter-tactics. If it sticks, the VQ becomes rather less effective. It's also a Fire-1 spell which isn't terribly hard to reach (and a certain nation starts with the spell pre-researched and has cheap Fire-1 mages). If you do have cheap fire-1 mages (and there is at least one random site which provides these), then it may be a pretty cheap thing to try.

Same thinking on the missile weapons - ya they may miss or be resisted, but they are cheap to produce and use.

Curse is of course also a good idea, since the VQ will probably have to be fought more than once.

The "dominion switch" trap I think sounds like a good technique, too. I'm not sure it does, but it seems like it should. I seem to recall some months ago, someone with an immortal griping about attacking a province with their dominion, only to die and find that fluctuations in dominion had caused their dominion to leave. Also, all other strategic actions I know of seem to occur before combat. So, I think attracting VQ's to areas in their dominion, where you have a bunch of priests preaching (and whatever else you may have - Black Priests, Inquisitors, blood sacrifice, Skeptics, false idols...) to remove her dominion just before she arrives. VQ-slayers move in on the same turn (and perhaps the living non-priest bait moves out).

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Wights are a bit late, aren't they? Unless there's an earlier Wight summons than Legion of Wights?
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Yes there is. Try Revive Wight under Conjuration-3, and costs 5 death gems, requiring Death-2.

And/or Revive Bane - same requirements, but 8 death gems for an even better unit which is a leader with full slots.

Early stuff, and looks pretty cheap and threatenning to VQ's, to me. Undead, no fatigue, no soul to vortex, almost no fear, immune to cold, magic weapon to ignore etherealness, nice combat skills and armor.

It just gets better at somewhat higher levels too - bane lords, spectres, and eventually... well, I think some of the level-7 conjuration summons look scarier than a VQ. Wraith Lord has very similar abilities, but is also a bad-*** fighter. At that point, one can match or better the VQ for 40 death gems. You need to survive to Conj-7 though.

PvK

[ May 05, 2004, 20:42: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Blitz]

Wights are one of my favorite units anyway, especially with Jotenhiem. That, or just go with Ice Devils (Blood 5? BBBWWW) and you get your own SC. Two or Three of those with winged boots. Quickness and go. I basicly shoot for them anyways, might as well use them against the VQ.

As for your own SC?

Put the Wight Blades away and get some Herald Lances Give someone a Totem Shield. Eye Shields will blind her. The Harvest Blade (artifact, BBBN hits automaticaly) will take off her legs, while Picus's Axe of Rulership (artifact, DDE) will do the same for her arms.

Something I haven't tried but probably isn't a bad idea...

Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

Lastly, if you are in the real lategame any naked VQ won't stand a chance against a few iron dragons.

Of course she'll be back next turn, but I never said there weren't counters.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

The fact that it's magic movement, means all you have to do is know where she is.

However, I haven't used them much... so I'm not sure how powerful it is... I remember not being terribly impressed, but then I didn't use them to fight undead... and it costs 50 Astral, which is little much to chain cast.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

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Thats one of the reasons I thought the VA was more of a small-map fast-game problem. There are all kinds of interesting things far up the research ladder. I dont tend to play many games that far so I couldnt remember any specifically

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

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Originally posted by AhhhFresh:

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

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Thats one of the reasons I thought the VA was more of a small-map fast-game problem. There are all kinds of interesting things far up the research ladder. I dont tend to play many games that far so I couldnt remember any specifically

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I haven't tested it fully, only pulled out a game where I could cast it and checked their stats... but that quick check seems to indicate that it would work pretty well. While the angels stats aren't all that great...

1) The Archangel leaders are Lvl 4 Priests
2) Angels fly (no chance for VQ buffing)
3) They are equiped with a magic weapon that does (13+13)x3 AP damage to undead
4) You can summon them to any province
5) The spell uses magic movement, so unless she uses teleport or something, you know that you will catch her
6) They stick around after the battle

I would guess that knowing where the VQ is, you could say: cast it 3 times in one turn(3 Priests and 18 angels) on that province, and come away with 0 casualties and a temporarily dead VQ.

If she had chaff with her, that would be problematic, as you can't give the angels orders ahead of time...

And I'm not sure how well it would work with a fully decked out VQ... but the only real defense I see, would be a (heh) high defense... which isn't that easy for a VQ.

AND you need several Astral 5 mages, 50 Astral gems for each casting, as well as Conj 7...

Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

[ May 05, 2004, 22:49: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[Blitz]

Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

The fatal flaw is you are down 50 astral pearls, probably an angel or two and the VQ loses... a battle. Maybe a province. There's no reason for that VQ not to charge back into that same province the very next turn, regardless of how futile the odds seem to be against winning.

Furthermore, I have my doubts as to if the strategy works. Maybe I'll test it out and see.