MP: Setsumi - Come for the game, stay for the drama!

[Quitti]

Maybe had Utgard and Rlyeh moved against Ermor, this game wouldnt be so sadly one-sided?
Maybe if they will wake up now (at last) we will still have a chance to revive this sad game?

I haven't been in the race for the top position for ages. This means that I'm not competing for the top position, and I'm either
a) Trying to learn from the experience
and
b) Not play to give "easy" victory to anyone (ie. You or zeldor, Marignon is out of the question now).
or
c) Playing little into the top nation(s) game by not attacking one of them, and doing whatever I do.

Should I put all my forces against Ermor, It might give you a cheap edge on the battlefields on the other side of the map to simply gobble up while Ermor is distracted in destroying me. Should I attack you, Ermor would probably gobble you up. So I'd very much like to see you two hit each other, no matter the result. The better player/nation wins. Simple as that. Of course if you can offer me something that will make me one of the top nations by attacking Ermor, sure, why not. Can you make one? Can Ermor make one? Which of you makes a better offer first? Does neither offer me anything? "Ermor not winning the game" is not enough for me. One nation will win the game, period. Top contenders are Man and Ermor from what I see.

So far, this game followed the most stupid scenario in whole Dominions: LA Ermor is surrounded by new/staling players, he absorbs them one by one, everyone thinks 'its OK because I will get some leftovers now, and then we'll unite'. 'THEN' it turns out that Ermor has grown too strong and everyone says 'oh I wont win anyway, so why should I care, I'll keep turtling'.
Really, Baaltz should mention such things in his 'players pledge'.

That shows that Zeldor has been succesfully diplomatic in whatever he's doing. Divide and conquer, as someone said a long time ago, supposedly.

P.S.
Cant say I am surprised about the death of my SCs. 'What can poor Ermor with his weak chaff do against teleporting Air Queens', right? Repeatedly teleporting SCs are very vulnerable. Too bad they didnt even inflict any casualties on you over this whole time. Just some 'useless freespawn'.
But at least they staled your advance for a few turns, and now I am one castle closer to your deadlands. I hope to prove a very unpleasant (read: challenging) neighbour yet. Alas, it wont be enough...

I'm really annoyed, to be honest. This is one of my best games - I took a rather limited nation and expanded into everything, getting a position that would be considered very powerful in any other game. But it wont change anything in Setsumi because of the stupid, stupid, stupid metagame.
Sigh.

P.P.S.

Just in case... if I didnt make myself clear enough: no, dont end this game now, goddamnit.

Just a pointer, diplomacy is part of the game. Doing awesomely well with your nation, which you claim/seem to have done, is not the whole game. I admit that I'd be very frustrated in your position too.

At this point I'm in for the ride along. I acknowledge that I should have attacked Ermor before I attacked Patala, but Patala was a very weak nation whom I just gobbled up. After that we had some disagreements with Mictlan, which ended up into me and Abysia pretty much gobbling Mictlan up, at which point I didn't have sufficient power to go against Ermor. I know Marignon was attacking him then, but nothing else. The situation hasn't changed that much now, except that Marignon decided to go AI, for losing SC's/mages, and not sticking around with this royal piece of steaming... excrement. Which a good player should've done. Now Ermor/Man/Abysia/me/whoever can waltz in and take his provinces that are not taken already. I admit that I don't have much intelligence with how much Marignon has left, but I'm betting he would have still had something up his sleeve.

Just my 2p. Thanks.

[SciencePro]

Kuritza: if you want to work together with someone diplomatically you would probably have a lot more success making constructive suggestions on PM instead of just whining and criticizing people on the forum thread.

Llama: Ermor may be overpowered but as long as people realize it is overpowered and adjust their plans accordingly the game won't be unbalanced. In fact, I suspect that the perception of ermor's overpoweredness is greater than their actual power which is a net liability.

Zeldor's sucess in this game so far has everything to do with his diplomatic/social game and very little to do with any inherent power of ermor.

[Zeldor]

Is someone trying to blame me that I am trying to win?

I personally think that I should not be so big and strong. But many people let me grow and didn't try to stop me. I think that some underplayed [thx for suiciding that 2 air queens, Kuritza, I had no idea how to get rid of them]. I won't tell what some people did wrong as I don't want to have suddenly my enemies start using good strats.

Kuritza surely did a great job at making Man really strong [but maybe he was just lucky and got weak neighbours that let him? we can say that every time against every major power]. But I don't understand the disappointment that other players don't want to help you win. I am fighting Marignon, you and Abysia [+ some minor nations]. No one is helping me. You are all bigger than me, have much bigger income and gem income, not even mentioning my pathetic research. Why would anyone want to help nation with great research, tartarians, hordes of lamia queens [you got discount site or what? :P], globals, etc. If R'lyeh can defeat someone later it's hordes of undead, not tartarians.

Anyway, I'm going to do my best and keep on fighting. Man has nice armies to annihilate [Abysia too :P].

[Ossa]

"The situation hasn't changed that much now, except that Marignon decided to go AI, for losing SC's/mages, and not sticking around with this royal piece of steaming... excrement. Which a good player should've done."


I fear I simply dont understand this sentence entirely, Quitti. You suggest I should stick with the game and go down with my flags raised high, correct?


About the hidden secret weapons of Marignon I still have up my sleve, there are... none. I cant get enough gems to empower one single mage to cast a seraph. I cannot counter Ermors Golems running amok, as a) I have fewer than him b) I cannot waste my few astral boosters on mages to teleport in and mind war him - I have neither the cash nor the gem income. Mind hunt is also out of the question. The only mages capable of casting astral bolt are cap only, and if I loose all my province I cant afford them anyway.

I could stop Ermor's horde of undead with my priests, but now I cannot stop his SCs. Thanks to that metagame incident with Ryleth he openened two new fronts that put my capital directly into his line of fire. So, military wise, I'm done. I'm gonna ask Ermor for a NAP and some remaining provinces though (so I'm not going ai) so I can see the end of the game.


I'm just so frustrated because this was also my favorite game of the year until that thing with Ryleth happened - I just felt cheated. I've come over it though, but while we all saw Ermor growing stronger and stronger (and we all know who is going to win this game by now), noone took up the opportunity while he was low in research and engaged against my H3 priests to weaken him. Everyone (arco ?) just turtlered and waged their own petty wars.

Ermor even offered me a NAP (twice!), but I turned it down - just for the sake of the game, as I thought I would be the most potent player to stop him in the beginning. As there's hardly anything to gain from conquering Ermors provinces, I truly didnt do that to get the lead above the other players.

I just feel frustrated and let down, and now my armies are routed, my castles under siege and I cannot even slow his advance.



I dont blame Zeldor for anything - actually, he played a difficult (well, should be with sensible players) nation extremly well and his diplomatic skills at keeping everyone appeased won him this game.

[Quitti]

I fear I simply dont understand this sentence entirely, Quitti. You suggest I should stick with the game and go down with my flags raised high, correct?

Yes. Exactly what I meant. I don't mind if a player loses, but if he's about to lose and goes AI, it'll usually affect the game balance greatly compared to if he'd stay. I attempt to stay as long as I can make a difference compared to going AI nowadays.

[Kuritza]

Quitty, you just perfectly described the very behaviour that turns a 'very unbalanced' LA Ermor into a 'absulutely unbalanced' LA Ermor. You just cant 'mind your business' when there is LA Ermor in the game. If you do, you lose. But you dont care; too bad, because this ruined this game.
I didnt want you to fight Ermor to give ME an edge. I wanted you to join EVERYONES war against Ermor to try and stop him, and then see what you can do next. I already clashed with Ermor, so did Abyssia. Bite him from behind, do SOMETHING. Gosh, unite against me with other survivors when Ermor is down; do some thinking! If you dont want to win, if you dont want to even TRY, why do you even join games?!

... I wont join any more games with LA Ermor from now on. This nation is special, its mere presense requires people to react. They dont.

Science - you think I should PM and come up with constructive suggestions? THATS WHAT I WAS DOING SINCE THE START. Nobody gives a damn. Everyone is affraid of fighting Ermor, watching him grow. You even thwarted Marignon when he tried to stand against him. Then you said 'ok, lets fight Ermor now' and... did nothing. Thats why I dont try to rally anyone anymore and just directly blame clueless players for ruining this game.

Ossa - you did great. Respect. Just dont send unequipped sea troll Kings as mages anymore. It is a very good thug/SC chassis with proper items. One of my favourites mid-game SCs, actually.

Zeldor - you dont have a 'pathetic' research anymore. We have open graphs; your research is growing very rapidly. And no, no discount site. My discount site is called CBM 1.5; QM made Lamia Queens cheaper compared to vanilla game.

And yet, I am against finishing this game. I still have some aces in my sleeve. They are quite feeble against sheer imbalancedness of overfed LA Ermor, yet I'd like Zeldor to earn this victory, not just claim it by starting next to weak players.
Heck, there is a very slim chance my 'aces' will be enough.

And again, a side note to myself - never, ever join a game with LA Ermor and lots of new players anymore.

[Zeldor]

You probably have some points here, Kuritza, but I will repeat myself - many people playing me did not use their assets properly. LA Marignon should be able to win 1:1 war with LA Ermor. I'm not doing propaganda here, just saying my opinion. I was sure I'm not going to win that game long time ago. Hey, when Marignon attacked me I could do nothing to stop his progress, I lost lots of provs fast. And when people kept on saying "let's kill Ermor, he is uber" I would really happily agree to switch over with MArignon player, as I was sure that he can win the war. Now Mari is for sure too weak and I got some tools to play with.

I had same feeling about LA Ermor when I was joining here, but now I think they are not as powerful. So if you want to join anotehr LA game, pick Ermor and I can join as other nation and we can see who is right

[SciencePro]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Science - you think I should PM and come up with constructive suggestions? THATS WHAT I WAS DOING SINCE THE START. Nobody gives a damn. Everyone is affraid of fighting Ermor, watching him grow. You even thwarted Marignon when he tried to stand against him. Then you said 'ok, lets fight Ermor now' and... did nothing. Thats why I dont try to rally anyone anymore and just directly blame clueless players for ruining this game.

Wow is that a load of bull. What fantasy universe are you living in? Kuritza, if you wanted me to help you all you would have had to do is get one of the other major powers on your side and ask me nicely to join with the two of you against Ermor. Right up until this latest drama/whining rampage you were in a great position to leverage your second-strongest empire into building a three-way or four-way alliance and setting yourself up to win the game.

But instead you have decided to continue criticizing and name-calling and generally being a gaping a-hole.

Buy a clue dude: that’s not how you get people to help you!

If you had been friendly and communicative I would have helped you. I am pretty sure the others would have helped you too and you would have won the game. But now your jerky behavior has bought you an enemy.

The dark lords of R’lyeh will not rest until every denizen of the Towers of Chelms is banished forever to the void of unending blackness. Prepare for war, Man!

[Quitti]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Quitty, you just perfectly described the very behaviour that turns a 'very unbalanced' LA Ermor into a 'absulutely unbalanced' LA Ermor. You just cant 'mind your business' when there is LA Ermor in the game. If you do, you lose. But you dont care; too bad, because this ruined this game.
I didnt want you to fight Ermor to give ME an edge. I wanted you to join EVERYONES war against Ermor to try and stop him, and then see what you can do next. I already clashed with Ermor, so did Abyssia. Bite him from behind, do SOMETHING. Gosh, unite against me with other survivors when Ermor is down; do some thinking! If you dont want to win, if you dont want to even TRY, why do you even join games?!

While I agree in somewhat same things as SciencePro, I wouldn't be as radical in my words, but essentially he distilled the point I would've been saying. Diplomacy wins wars once the nations are of sufficient size, not ranting about things.

Still, pointers. I like arranging things into numbers or such, it seems.
1) Haven't you been "minding your own business"? I haven't seen you attack Ermor before now. I've seen you state over and over how imbalanced LA Ermor is, and I agree that in this point Ermor is a very very good nation. So would be Niefelheim, or Hinnom, or Sauromatia in similar position. Or Marignon.
2) I agree with Zeldor, LA Marignon should have absolutely no trouble with LA Ermor if played in anti-ermorian way (holy pyre, h3 recruit anywhere priests, excellent line holders against undead chaff - royal guards). I was certain Zeldor would be gone after Marignon started attacking him, and I started hearing stuff about Seraphs, but alas, no. Either Zeldor has some tricks up his sleeve I do not know of and deserves to win anyway since it'd have to be something awesomely good, or the player for Marignon didn't fully realize the potential of his nation.
3) I could do damage to Ermor, but he could counter my forces easily enough. I could counter Ermors forces easily should he attack me. I've got counters for any SC's he could throw at me, and I have a counters for any chaff he could ever throw at me. The problem is that I wouldn't gain anything by attacking fully forted nation, it'd take 2-5 turns to take each fort, and I could probably maintain reasonable siege against 4 forts per turn. Now, what does ermor lose with a castle? Gem income, which he doesn't much need, and which I don't much need. He wouldn't lose any income. I wouldn't gain any. He could take potshots with stealthy mages, teleporting SC's, longrange spells, and I would lose troops, he'd lose few SC's and mages eventually, but the point is that he wouldn't be throwing anything critical at me, unless in sufficient masses to really crush the force. Basically it boils down to being an horrible attrition war, which neither of us would enjoy or gain anything out of.
4) I never said I wouldn't be playing for winning the game, but when the situation is that there is no feasible way of winning the game, I do not play for attempting to win it anymore. I play for having fun. If I have a reasonable chance to win, I push for it.
5) I already stated that I should have attacked Ermor in the very early game. I made a mistake there. I might very well be in top nations now had I done it. I also might as well be very well conquered by you or Mictlan or heck, Patala. I just had an easy way to expand south and I took it. That took the first ~40 turns for me.
6) I've played with LA Ermor in a MP game, actually still am, but I'm not a major force. They have abysmal research (in midgame ~quarter of normal/high researcher rp-income) unless they get very lucky with sites. They have good mages, but they have very limited amount of them. They also have literally thousands of free troops, but they are of absolutely no use against a proper counter for them. In late game it is definitely a good nation that just requires loads and loads of micromanagement to be ran well.
7) Attacking Ermor now would give you a definite edge, and no-one else. Period.

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

[Ossa]

@Kuritza, Quitti and Zeldor:

1)
During the middle game, when I first declared war on Ermor, I was winning. I was pushing him further and further with my H3 priests, holy pyres, untouchable def 19 royal guards and everything. Especially when I managed to cast a prot 30+ royal elemental to act as a blocker.

I managed to go the whole way up to Turku (sp?) with my army until...

... until Science took over, the old player forgot to teach him properly the existing NAPs and Zeldor talked him into attacking my.

When all of your lands are islands surrounded by Ryleth and suddenly that NAPed nation goes on a rampage in your lands you cannot leave your armies fighting Ermor.


If it wouldnt be for Ryleth, I'd have weakened Ermor enough before he summened his SCs. When Ryleth attacked me, Ermor again offered me a NAP, just to stress this point.

LA Marignon would have won a 1:1 war with LA Ermor, even with me playing it. Unfortunatly it wasnt a 1:1 war.


2)
The sea troll was a last ditch efford to clean some of Ermor's water provinces in the vain hope that Ryleth would take them before Ermor comes in again. Didnt work.


3)

Also, what is this "everyones war against Ermor" you talk of? Are you attempting to say with all this that the game can not be fun if Ermor wins?

I guess he's implying that while it is fun if Ermor wins, it would be even more fun if all living nations would unite against a common enemy.