Proportions....

[PsychoTechFreak]

PvK, your 1kT troops bring up another idea, maybe this is possible:

What if you could create 1kT Fighters which in fact are 1-man invasion troops with a backpack jet propulsion (I am not sure about the term)?

That would be a nice one.

[PvK]

PTF, are you talking about planetary fighters, a variety of "troops" that help capture planets?

PvK

[MacLeod]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MacLeod:
And why is it set so AI's won't surrender except against the most absolutely absurd odds (10000 to 1). Means there nothing left to do with them but destroy them and that's just a boring waste

Because the hard-coded AI logic would otherwise have intact homeworlds surrendering to aliens who did something like:

1) Blockade their homeworld
2) Build many large ships, even unarmed colony ships, causing the score to tip extremely, even though the high-score empire doesn't really pose a particular threat to the AI.
3) or other silliness

Also, an AI surrender of an intact homeworld, particularly to a human player, is a major game event with major effects in Proportions. It also allows both homeworlds to directly add their research, multiplying research rate, which is something the rest of the mod tries to tone down.

So, the idea is if you want that massive prize, you may have to actually earn it and not take advantage of AI foolishness.

PvK

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Aye, but as it is, the AI is basically unable to surrender as it would require at minimum 40,000 points.
Surrender, I'm pretty sure, it disablable in the game settings, so it's kind of redundant and removes the choice.

PTF, you mean a fighter that can invade a planet? As long as fighters can hold cargo that should be doable, give them one cargo so they can hold a single troop. However, chances are fighters can't

[PvK]

Originally posted by MacLeod:
Aye, but as it is, the AI is basically unable to surrender as it would require at minimum 40,000 points.
Surrender, I'm pretty sure, it disablable in the game settings, so it's kind of redundant and removes the choice.

PTF, you mean a fighter that can invade a planet? As long as fighters can hold cargo that should be doable, give them one cargo so they can hold a single troop. However, chances are fighters can't

Isn't AI surrender based on score ratio? I'm not sure where you get the 40,000 point figure. The problem is, that any empire with an intact homeworld probably has good reason not to surrender, and the AI's current method of scoring and therefore determining whether it will surrender is hopelessly broken by Proportions' large non-combattant (Starliners and Colony Ships) ship sizes and the ability to blockade homeworlds.

If there were a way to disable surrender by default in settings.txt, I might set that for Proportions, but relying on players to find and read instructions in my readme file to get their games to work correctly would result in many players having the wrong settings.

Fighters can't invade planets, and no units can carry other units (unless they're really Ships pretending to be units).

PvK

(edit fixed parentheses)

[ January 25, 2003, 19:18: Message edited by: PvK ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by PvK:
PTF, are you talking about planetary fighters, a variety of "troops" that help capture planets?

PvK

Well, it came from brainstorming, but I think it should be more a kind of rocket-man who acts like a very small fighter just in ship to ship combats. Hard to be hit. But I guess it could be a problem if too many units are involved, there is a limited number of units for the combat screen? I am going to setup a small test...

PTF

[PvK]

Oh, I see - space infantry, represented by tiny fighters.

Hmmm.

Let us know how your tests go.

PvK

[leo1434]

Proportions Mod is Great!! SE 4 is a great game, too! I recently discovered it and I'm completely hooked!
i would like to see a new Version of proportions soon! It would be a very welcome addition to expand fighter components. I added by myself some fighter weapons: i.e. a fighter gun-pod, representing an external mounted gatling gun (it takes less space than the DUC, 2 kt, but does less damage, the range is the same) and dogfighting missiles (not much damage capacity each one, but beware when they are fired in salvos by Groups of fighters agains ships. Ships without PD don�t Last against this seekers. They make a damge of 10-12-15 (depending on its Mk Number or tech level) and medium range (7-9 units).

As I said I would like to see new ideas about improving fighter tech.

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by PvK:
Oh, I see - space infantry, represented by tiny fighters.

Hmmm.

Let us know how your tests go.

PvK

Hmmm, also. Better not:
20,000 units in space, launched by 50 per square, took about 2-3 minutes in strategic combat (1.3 GHz, AMD). It looks a bit funny, like two bee swarms. The problem, as far as I have got it, if 400 grid fields are filled with units, it is hard to find a possible way through the friendly units, both swarms need a lot of time to reach the foes. Launching is a small problem also, because of the grid limits around the launching stations. The rocketeers had a few shots, about a quarter of them, but it would take more than 30 turns (I assume about 80) to finish the battle.

PTF

[dogscoff]

are we doing proportions wish lists? OK, here's mine for the next Version:

-Hive cities/ hive cultural centres/ hive components, as previously suggested.

-Planet,SW & RW creation techs should require tech level 7,8 & 9 respectively in planet utilisation. Just to make those technologies even more of an overpriced ego trip=-)

-The larger cities (metropolis and above) should require research in psychology - that tech area is currently only good for the urban pacification centre. It makes sense to flesh it out a little, and urban planning does require understanding of psychology.

-More city/ settlement types! How about a college/ universtity/campus facility family? They could have high research output, some intel and maybe a little resource production. They could also have a (very limited) ship/ fleet training ability and perhaps some effects on population growth/ happiness. The first level would be immediately available but subsequent facilities would require the Research & urban development tech trees.

-Convert the religious shrines into families of city-like facilities: for example the fate shrine would be a bit like a colonial community or minor city but with the fate shrine ability attached to it, representing a whole religious community. Then you could upgrade it to a fate temple, fate monastary (or something), and the same for the other shrines.

[ January 26, 2003, 22:34: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[PvK]

PTF, LOL, thanks for testing that.

leo1434, thanks! If you like (you or anyone), email me your suggested components or other changes, and I will consider adding something like them.

For fighters, I think I will add some more "stuff" (missiles, PD, etc) eventually when time allows, however the main change I would make for the next major Version would be for them to start out like crummy SE3 fighters - slow, weak, easy to kill, and unable to move out of the sector they are launched in. The other abilities would still be available, but would require specific research to get fast, hard-to-hit, powerful, able-to-zoom-around-a-system-for-months Versions. The engines would be the source of most of the combat bonuses, and would probably come in different sizes as well, so fast fighters would be the hard ones to hit. They would all take even less damage to kill than currently, and anti-fighter weapons would do less damage, while fighter-against-ship weapons would mostly be too inaccurate to hit other fighters. (i.e., like it is now, but more extreme, and requiring much more specific research).

dogscoff, your suggestions are mostly in line with my Foundations mod design, and some can appear in 3.0, though not in 2.5.x because folks like Fryon don't want the tech tree to change.

This weekend I more or less finished 2.5.3, although I am tempted to add an anonymous ship tech area (builds ships using the generic shipset, so enemies can't easily tell the origin of gifted ships) and maybe some fun eccentric nonsense like World Ships (oh, and maybe some other evil cloaking components) before release, and I haven't really tested it much. Also I haven't done 2.5.2, which will be 2.5.3 minus the fixes to remote mining, so existing games using lots of remote mining won't be unbalanced.

So, 2.5.3 is a stab at a Last Version to be compatible with existing games, and then 3.0 would (when I get time) come stomp on the nonsense that is creeping in from trying to keep things compatible, and do some larger revisions and changes.

Here's the preview feature list:

Version 2.5.3:

--------------------------
Remote Mining Adjustments:
--------------------------
* Added restriction on remote miner components per unit to two, halved
structure, and doubled size of ship/base Versions. This prevents
massively productive mining bases, which were possible before but
were unintentionally overproductive. It also presents interesting
choices between ship, base and satellite miner designs. Pre-existing
bases in upgraded games will retain their former abilities (except
structure).

Version 2.5.2:

-------------------------------------------------------------
Changes for smoother upgrades for existing games using 2.4.2:
-------------------------------------------------------------
* The Fighter Carriers tech added in 2.5 now costs more, is expanded in
both directions to five levels (using the Tiny and Massive carrier images
from the SE4 Image Neo-Standard) and provides improved classes compared
to the standard carriers. Existing carriers have their costs and to-hit
penalties somewhat increased. The five new carrier classes are Escort
Carrier, Advanced Light Carrier, Advanced Carrier, Advanced Heavy Carrier,
and Super-Heavy Carrier.
* Pre-existing special armors downgraded to compensate for their
ability compared to the new armors that require specialized research, and
to compensate for changes to Emissive Armor from Gold patch Version 1.78.
Unlike 2.5 & 2.5.1, they can now continue to be deployed, and may be good
choices for large ships (since they don't use Scale mounts and so will be
smaller on large ships).
---------
Gameplay:
---------
* Added six levels to the new Stealth Armor tech area, allowing eventual
(expensive) blocking of all Active and Passive EM scans.
------
Fixes:
------
* Fixed crippling Sergetti design bug - thanks to Oleg again!
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Changed the Large Starliner to use the "Barge" image from the SE4 Image
Neo-Standard, if it is provided.
* Fixed minor typo in to-hit description of some ships (said "base").

PvK