What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Don't expect the current effects of cheap drones to last.
They're VERY effective at the moment because basically no one has developed a defense against them but that will change FAST. Simple jamming or an EM pulse will drop them in a heartbeat.

I think it's safe to not include drones in the game because aircraft are already a stretch and you can kill drones easily with rifles.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Don't expect the current effects of cheap drones to last.
They're VERY effective at the moment because basically no one has developed a defense against them but that will change FAST. Simple jamming or an EM pulse will drop them in a heartbeat.

Simple jamming isn't stopping the drones on both sides from hitting their targets in appreciable numbers.

Yes, the future is going to be directed energy weapons (DEW) applied to every armored vehicle -- presumably as part of the active protection (APS) system -- if the APS detects a signature similar to the very fast spinning rotors of a quadcopter; send back a short high frequency radar burst to that target to fry the drone.

Or lasers (they're just getting deployed now) will appear in large numbers to counter drones.

Either way, a LOT of coding would be necessary to accurately depict weapons effects for both lasers and DEWs in Steel Panthers since they're a totally new "rock-papers-scissors" paradigm versus the current projectile weapon system used in all Steel Panthers since 1994.

Issues to solve would be:

1.) Size issues -- laser size is rated in kilowatts with targets being:

10 kw = Mortar shells and small drones
50 kw = artillery shells and heavier drones
300 kw = combat aircraft, etc.

2.) Lasers can be affected by dust/smoke/weather conditions; to an extent that projectile weapons aren't.

3.) Microwave (aka Radar based) DEWs are largely unaffected by weather; but are a current unknown-unknown -- in that we don't have public open source data on just how much radar energy is needed to disable/damage current threat profiles -- commercial drones like DJI Mavics should be relatively easy; but a combat aircraft like the F-16 -- IDK how well that would work, given that F-16s have been tested for operations in a nuclear environment with nuclear-generated EMP.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

Simple jamming isn't stopping the drones on both sides from hitting their targets in appreciable numbers.

Yes, the future is going to be directed energy weapons (DEW) applied to every armored vehicle -- presumably as part of the active protection (APS) system -- if the APS detects a signature similar to the very fast spinning rotors of a quadcopter; send back a short high frequency radar burst to that target to fry the drone.

Or lasers (they're just getting deployed now) will appear in large numbers to counter drones.

Either way, a LOT of coding would be necessary to accurately depict weapons effects for both lasers and DEWs in Steel Panthers since they're a totally new "rock-papers-scissors" paradigm versus the current projectile weapon system used in all Steel Panthers since 1994.

Issues to solve would be:

1.) Size issues -- laser size is rated in kilowatts with targets being:

10 kw = Mortar shells and small drones
50 kw = artillery shells and heavier drones
300 kw = combat aircraft, etc.

2.) Lasers can be affected by dust/smoke/weather conditions; to an extent that projectile weapons aren't.

3.) Microwave (aka Radar based) DEWs are largely unaffected by weather; but are a current unknown-unknown -- in that we don't have public open source data on just how much radar energy is needed to disable/damage current threat profiles -- commercial drones like DJI Mavics should be relatively easy; but a combat aircraft like the F-16 -- IDK how well that would work, given that F-16s have been tested for operations in a nuclear environment with nuclear-generated EMP.

Drones are just a range 10 grenade. They are already part of the game.

If you do want to know the math behind how jamming works I can show you. The jammers themselves are custom made and there aren't any mass produced models you can put in an oob, but I can give you numbers.

The size value in the game already abstracts all of this. There is no reason to handle different sensors differently. If you can detect something visually you can detect it by radar as well. The size and other values in the game are just for all detection types, for example aircraft have an EW value that is used for stealth and things that aren't EW.

Again, in real life it would be shot down by rifles immediately but if we want to simulate jamming we can. Regardless of drones it would be good to have some understanding of how ground penetrating radars and such work. This also allows tunnel warfare which is the only real thing you need in tbe game as tunnel warfare happens a lot in real life.

But I can give you information on how jamming works and the signal/noise ratio functions, and you can incorporate that as a size value in units, there is no code change needed as the unit visibility is already abstracted as size, suppression, the orders system etc.

[Karagin]

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality. Projectile weapons aren't being replaced anytime soon. Drones are a great idea, but they have limited use, and everyone is working to counter them so that they might be a short-term item on the battlefield.

Keep in mind not every fight will mimic the insanity we are currently seeing, and that is something I believe the Western military leadership is not keeping in their thinking going forward.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Karagin

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality. Projectile weapons aren't being replaced anytime soon. Drones are a great idea, but they have limited use, and everyone is working to counter them so that they might be a short-term item on the battlefield.

Keep in mind not every fight will mimic the insanity we are currently seeing, and that is something I believe the Western military leadership is not keeping in their thinking going forward.

Not to mention that in any major power war, all GPS satellites will be destroyed immediately and all but the most advanced drones will be completely useless.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Karagin

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality.

This is from last year.

https://seapowermagazine.org/northro...-uss-portland/

The Laser Weapon System Demonstrator [Mark 2 MOD 0] deployed on the U.S. Navy’s amphibious platform dock ship USS Portland (LPD 27) has competed its first deployment as the Portland returned to its homeport of San Diego in March....

The 150-kilowatt LWSD is mounted on the superstructure of the Portland and is integrated with the ship’s combat information center, where a control console is installed. Northrop Grumman made the Tactical Laser Core Module of the system, while the U.S. government made the system’s energy and thermal storage modules.

....

During the deployment on the Portland, the LWSD was operated and maintained completely by Sailors. No company employees were on board to support the system. The company provided training on the system before the deployment and developed a three-volume operation and maintenance manual for Sailors to use on the ship, she said.

[MarkSheppard]

The US Army released it's Counter UAS (C-UAS) Field Manual (they now call it something else -- ADP).

https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/atp3-01-81.pdf

ATP 3-01.81
Counter-Unmanned Aircraft System (C-UAS)
AUGUST 2023

...

Group 1 - Micro/Mini UAS (0 to 20 lbs) (RQ-11 Raven / DJI MAVIC) - Generally, hand launched commercial off-the-shelf, radio controlled platforms. They have limited ranges and small payload capabilities. They offer real time video. Operated within line of sight of the user.

Group 2 - Small Tactical (21 to 55 lbs) (SCAN EAGLE / SKY-09Ps) - Small airframes with low radar cross sections provide medium range and endurance. Launched from unimproved areas with a small number of people involved. Requires line of sight to the ground control station.

Group 3 - Tactical (56 to 1,320 lbs) (RQ-7B Shadow / Shahed) -- Similar to Group 1 and 2 UAS, requires a larger logistical footprint. Range and endurance varies significantly among platforms.

Group 4 - Strategic/Theater (Over 1,320 lbs) (MQ-1 Predator / Gray Eagle) - Relatively large systems operated at medium to high altitudes. This group has extended range and endurance capabilities. Normally requires a runway for launch and recovery.

Group 5 - Strategic (Over 1,320 lbs) (RQ-4 Global Hawk / MQ-9 Reaper) - Operates at medium to high altitudes having the greatest range, endurance, and airspeed. Requires large logistical footprint like that of manned aircraft and has a suite of optics for targeting and weaponry for engagements.

NOTE: Integrated air and missile defense (AMD) capabilities can effectively counter larger classes (groups 3, 4, and 5). AMD assets have difficulty tracking, identifying, and defeating small-unmanned aircraft systems (sUASs) (groups 1 and 2).

It also lists publicly what the Army has for defeating small-unmanned aircraft systems (sUASs):

1.) Handheld Radio Direction Finder - it tells you if a threat is operating in the common frequencies used by drones, and where it's coming from.

2.) Simple Directed Energy Weapon -- "Drone Buster" -- an oversized radar gun that jams the frequencies used by commercial drones.

3.) SMART SHOOTER -- A new weapons sight that mounts to existing rifles. When the Smart Shooter is employed, it will only fire when the sight is aligned to hit the target, this includes the required “lead” on a moving target.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

3.) SMART SHOOTER -- A new weapons sight that mounts to existing rifles. When the Smart Shooter is employed, it will only fire when the sight is aligned to hit the target, this includes the required “lead” on a moving target.

RE: 3.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5YWXrZdNpA


One comment posted was interesting

For the record, this is more or less the infantry version of an M1 Abrams' fire control suite, which was so phenomenally accurate that crews started referring to their ammunition storage as stowed kills.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Karagin

I don't see lasers or DEWs on anything for the next ten years, not until they get a better power source and battery weight issues down to the realm of reality.

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/sta...53382781870513

Northrop Grumman recently delivered a miniaturized high-energy laser source to the DOD. The 10kW class #HEL, known as #Phantom, is about 12 cubic feet & weighs less than 200 lbs. The laser is ruggedized for field use & miniaturizing it allows for rapid placement according to NG.

20 kW is about equivalent to a 30 hp engine; easily placeable on a AFV as an APU of some sorts that can power the AFV when parked, when it's not powering the laser...

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/sta...53382781870513

Northrop Grumman recently delivered a miniaturized high-energy laser source to the DOD. The 10kW class #HEL, known as #Phantom, is about 12 cubic feet & weighs less than 200 lbs. The laser is ruggedized for field use & miniaturizing it allows for rapid placement according to NG.

20 kW is about equivalent to a 30 hp engine; easily placeable on a AFV as an APU of some sorts that can power the AFV when parked, when it's not powering the laser...

And what does that APU run on?

Recall again they want to go to all-electric vehicles for BOTH tactical and non-tactical vehicles, including armored tracked and wheeled vehicles. So, while it might be a small APU, what is it running on? And how long does it last? Sounds great, but if it only lasts a few hours at full power, then it's not much use. Also, how many techs are going to be attached to the unit to make sure it stays up and running at full spec?