Counter battery fire question

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The likelihood of an off-map battery being located for C/B goes up as the game goes on, due to the target battery usually having fired more often as the game progresses.

Early in a Russian LC battle (turn 3 or 4 IIRC) a recently upgraded 122mm battery (experience 88) fired off-map CB against one of three German 10.5cm batteries, scoring one hit. For quite a few turns none of those batteries fired at all. Then, around turn 12 or so they all started firing again, without any response from the 122mm, which was idle throughout the battle except for that single CB salvo. Is this normal? Thanks.

[Mobhack]

Yes - you caused the battery to retreat or possibly rout. After a while it recovered and returned to business. If it was the leader battery for a battalion formation the subordinates may not have been in contact. If not in contact - no calls taken from the FOOs.

Rare to retreat so long from just one hit, but it happens.
Rare that both subordinate batteries would stay out of contact so long - but it can happen.

(The batteries may have been in direct or general support as well, so having longer call times if not pre-plotted in a programme).

[jivemi]

OK thanks. But why didn't the Russian 122mm battery respond to subsequent fires later on?

[Mobhack]

Because it did not throw good enough dice. Chance is involved in all things, there are very few certainties.

[DRG]

Counter battery fire is one of the truly "C'est la guerre" aspects of the game. If you leave off map batteries idle they CAN fire.... and they MAY fire....but they MAY NOT fire and you as the commander have no control whatsoever so you need to decide to use the batteries for fire missions or leave them idle on the hope the stars and planets will align and they will give the enemy trouble..... it's always been that way and always will. You can never be SURE at the start of the game what benefit or not they will give you because this randomness is the only way to simulate the science of detecting enemy batteries position and getting your guns trained on it and doing enough damage to silence it......for how long?... you don't know because RL commanders don't know either....did you actually destory the guns of drive the crews into their trenches and the same is true of your PBEM opponent or the AI....it's a crap shoot in the game just as in RL

[jp10]

Warning: Generalized statements follow which are based on US military doctrine (but hold true for other military forces) and will have established exceptions:
Most counter battery assets will be at Division or Corps level which is above the level of command in both WINSP games.
Artillery assets are usually considered to be either General or Direct to the units they support or Dedicated to a specific task.
General Support Artillery fires in support of the operation as a whole rather than in support of a specific subordinate unit.
In WINSPMBT this would be the OFF MAP artillery. It could fire on map targets or be used to counter battery detected enemy artillery. It also can be considered to be supporting other commands not on the player's map.
Direct Support Artillery provides fire requested by the supported unit.
In WINSPMBT this would be the ON MAP artillery, supporting only the units on the map.

A battery assigned to one task rather than a unit (H&R, Interdiction, Counter-Battery...etc) can be considered Dedicated to that task. This is what a player is doing when they leave a battery idle for a chance of it to counter fire an enemy artillery unit.

My observation is that a dedicated CB battery would be considered to be quicker in support of that mission and deployed and supported for more efficient CB. Two ways to do this could be, 1. A new artillery unit 'Dedicated CB Arty' that the player buys that does not fire on map but has a higher % of firing. 2. No new units but arty capable of CB that remain idle gain a better % each turn they stay idle up to a capped % based on nationality/doctrine/training factors for each nation greater than the game currently simulates. In a perfect game world it would be able to CB enemy artillery on the player map without input from the player.
Oh to sleep, perchance to dream...

[Imp]

CB is already good for experienced nations as experience is the major factor that determines if a unit CB fires.
70+ are quite good 80+ I have CB fired on a battery after its first shot, cannot get better than that.

Lets assume experience simulates detection equipment & the training to use it, hence the location of the battery.

Low experience sides in the 60s will hardly ever CB fire unless the other side fires continuous fire missions. AI normally does 2 missions & a break try doing 5 or 6 in a row & your inviting CB fire from anyone.

My guess is this represents things well for most nations poorly trained nations will be ineffective at CB fire as portrayed.
If a low experience side has a well trained CB element its easy enough to replicate. Give the formation a experience boost so it gets 70+ experience.

Should the designers want to add a class to under command, direct, general support they could boost experience & either make it unusable on map or give it a high call time as that's not its mission.
This would probably help the AI more than the player as it would be holding its high experience units for CB fire, something you do already.

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Off map arty is a soft target - the C/B routine uses the shells with the highest HE kill to determine damage.

Somewhat off-topic, but are off-map arty considered dug-in for assaults/defenses? If so, then isn't it unlikely that anything smaller than 155mm will do any appreciable damage? Thanks for your kind attention.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by jivemi

Somewhat off-topic, but are off-map arty considered dug-in for assaults/defenses? If so, then isn't it unlikely that anything smaller than 155mm will do any appreciable damage? Thanks for your kind attention.

Off map are soft. Dug in or not is ignored. Bigger shells firing are better at CB than little ones.

Counter battery is simply an abstraction - it is something dealt with by higher level commanders than you.

Leave your off map batteries idle, and higher command may use them to fire on enemy firing off-map units without bothering to ask you. Experience and range of the idle batteries is the main determinant of CB firing, and how big a bang the guns make in determining damage.

That is all you as a battalion commander need to know.

[jivemi]

FWIW--and at risk of flogging this dead horse--a recent assault battle had my 122mm battery firing within the first 10 turns and scoring 7 hits on the German 10.5cm battery. Then switched it to on-map fires for awhile. When the enemy battery (there was only one) resumed fire it went back to standby, apparently doing more CB (I must've missed the message) since at battle's end the German battery was retreating with 34 points of damage. Most gratifying, and yet another reason to love this incredible game.

Cheers and Happy New Year folks!