Current game effects of thermobaric ammo

[Wdll]

Let's see if I am more clear this time.
One "shell" of the Tos-1 falling in a hex that there are 4 Merkava 4s, it destroys all of them. This, I feel being too much powerful for my (and my opponent) taste. Why is it that difficult to just accept that we have this view on it that doesn't necessarily mean you guys haven done something wrong?

I don't know if it is accurate or not. I guess we are not going to find out before someone use it in real life against them.

I am fine with it, I just refuse to use it.

But since you continue with this, is anything going to change with the way CM artillery works and i ts efficiency in the surrounding+ hexes it hits?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Wdll

But since you continue with this, is anything going to change with the way CM artillery works and its efficiency in the surrounding+ hexes it hits?

Given that CM isn't the topic of this thread and was only mentioned in passing by you on post #8 and there are no other active threads discussing CM effects and you are the only one who has expressed an opinion about it's effects right now I'd have to say no.

Start a new thread and lets see what everyone has to say

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

OK, lets start with the weapons. Which ones specifically ? Give me a couple of examples. There are at least three ways a flame weapon could be modeled in the game so I need specifics not generalities

Don

OOB 13 USMC (of course!)

Weapon #30 - 40mm TB Grenade (Wpn Cls 8 - Inf Flame)
Seems a bit odd that a 40mm round sets a 50m hex on fire.

Weapon #162 - SMAW-NE (Wpn Cls 18 - Napalm)
I can see the larger SMAW round starting a fire in a hex - but...

Weapon #185 - CBU Incendiary (Wpn Cls 18 - Napalm)
Thinking this might be "better" (better being of course subjective and relative) modeled more like Weapon #203 - 1000lb Airburst.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Let's see if I am more clear this time.
One "shell" of the Tos-1 falling in a hex that there are 4 Merkava 4s, it destroys all of them. This, I feel being too much powerful for my (and my opponent) taste. Why is it that difficult to just accept that we have this view on it that doesn't necessarily mean you guys haven done something wrong?

I don't know if it is accurate or not. I guess we are not going to find out before someone use it in real life against them.

I am fine with it, I just refuse to use it.

But since you continue with this, is anything going to change with the way CM artillery works and i ts efficiency in the surrounding+ hexes it hits?

I have zero issues with CM or various other area effect rounds destroying multiple targets in a hex (or surrounding ones).
I do however find it immensely amusing when an aircraft fired Maverick kills two or more targets or one in an adjacent hex. I assume this is an unintended but unavoidable side effect of warhead size.

[Mobhack]

No, as we have constantly pointed out, air weapons are High Explosive (when not specifically CM or Napalm). That includes Mavericks or air cannons. HE will attack all in the same and sometimes surrounding hexes.

There are no HEAT fixed-wing air PGM, all are effectively a form of LGB.

Andy

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

No, as we have constantly pointed out, air weapons are High Explosive (when not specifically CM or Napalm). That includes Mavericks or air cannons. HE will attack all in the same and sometimes surrounding hexes.

There are no HEAT fixed-wing air PGM, all are effectively a form of LGB.

Andy

Yup, as I said, unintended but unavoidable side effect of the game code. As you say air weapons "work like they work", and without some serious recoding (which ain't gonna happen) we can just chuckle at them from time-to-time.

I've played around a bit with the Pen & Kill numbers on various bombs and air-launched missiles (and gotten some very amusing results) but haven't stumbled across and set of Pen/Kill values that "work better" then the ones used in the game now. I have however had some success adjusting Warhead Size that reduces the frequency (reducing, not eliminating) of adjacent/same hex colatteral kills from missiles. So far I havn't done an extensive experiment to see if it's also reducing the lethality to the target as well, one has to assume it is, how much I can't say at the moment.

[Imp]

I have however had some success adjusting Warhead Size that reduces the frequency (reducing, not eliminating) of adjacent/same hex colatteral kills from missiles. So far I havn't done an extensive experiment to see if it's also reducing the lethality to the target as well, one has to assume it is, how much I can't say at the moment.

Latest WW2 patch has a tool that will let you find out, assume it works across both OOBs, slightly less Pen & less effective vs units in cover will be the result I think.

[Suhiir]

OOB 11 (Russia)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#032 RMG RG Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=50 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=35
#033 TBG-7V Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=11 HEK=55 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=33
#119 ATO FT Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#171 TPO FT Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=30 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=20

WC=9 (Veh Flame)
#117 ATO VFT Acc=20 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=40 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25
#244 220mm FAE Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=22 HEK=140 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=66

WC=18 (Napalm)
#031 RPO Shmel Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=9 HEK=45 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
#068 RPO Shmel-M Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=11 HEK=60 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=30
#076 RPO Rys Acc=15 Whd=3 HEP=6 HEK=30 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=20
#219 ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

OOB 12 (US Army)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#047 40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12
#119 Flamethrower Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#161 Fougasse Acc=20 Whd=55 HEP=11 HEK=110 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25

WC=18 (Napalm)
#166 FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#223 Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

OOB 13 (USMC)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#030 40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12
#119 Flamethrower Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#161 Fougasse Acc=20 Whd=55 HEP=11 HEK=110 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25

WC=18 (Napalm)
#162 SMAW-NE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=2 HEK=27 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
#185 CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#223 Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

Ok, given the above data from the current version of the game :

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
RMG RG Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=50 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=35
TBG-7V Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=11 HEK=55 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=33
40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12

I'm wondering if the HEP rating on the 40mm TB might be a tad low.

WC=18 (Napalm)
OOB 12 (US Army)
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14
OOB 13 (USMC)
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

Different Warhead size.

WC=18 (Napalm)
RPO Shmel Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=9 HEK=45 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
RPO Shmel-M Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=11 HEK=60 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=30
RPO Rys Acc=15 Whd=3 HEP=6 HEK=30 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=20
66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14
SMAW-NE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=2 HEK=27 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27

I'm thinking the SMAW-NE might have a higher Acc given the 9mm spotter.

RPO Shmel, 93mm, 2.1kg warhead.
SMAW-NE, 83mm, between 4.35kg and 6.9kg round weight (no specific warhead weight data I could find, I'd assume about 1/2 the round weight so apx. 2 to 3.5kg).

Given this perhaps the HEP, HEK, and HEAT Pen might be reconsidered.

Also the 66mm Rkt uses a 0.61kg napalm warhead and has a higher HEP then the SMAW-NE.

WC=18 (Napalm)
ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

Look at HEK, Napalm=50 & 100, FAE=100 & 200, CBU=190.
Might 190 be a bit low for the CBU?

[DRG]

I'll tuck this away and will get to it when I get to it...


Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

Look at HEK, Napalm=50 & 100, FAE=100 & 200, CBU=190.
Might 190 be a bit low for the CBU?

IDK, the Acc=101 makes it the most accurate "napalm" weapon in the game and there are only three weapons with a higher HEP.

There is no other "CBU" more accurate and no other "cluster" weapon that's even close for HEKill.

Don