Should returning be overridden at all? - Page 3

Agema · #21 August 20th, 2008, 02:11 PM

One of the most compelling reasons that Returning should be capable of being overridden is that (to my knowledge) no other spell is immune to overriding. Also, it's no more or less "faulty" than all sorts of other AI decisions, whether ill-advisedly following a script, ill-advisedly breaking it, or just extra-script casting, any of which may devastate a battle plan or otherwise cause ruin.

Taking into account the AI's foibles is a dimension that has to be learnt along with everything else.

thejeff · #22 August 20th, 2008, 02:35 PM

No, but some spells are prevented from being cast without scripting. This is really just the reverse.

Saying, "the AI makes bad decisions, live with it", is not a good argument against improving it where it can be improved, even if it'll still make other bad decisions.

Zeldor · #23 August 20th, 2008, 02:50 PM

If I script Returning it usually means I have a really good reason for it. And I'd be more happy with it working against a scout than not working against teleporting in S9 Magic Dueling Statue.

ano · #24 August 20th, 2008, 04:03 PM

Yes, I absolutely agree. Let it be working always but not "sometimes".
And the worst thing with it is that it is nearly unpredictable when it works or not

Sadly, this thread seems to have no point because I really wanted this to be changed but as eight people (two of ten made a mistake) and one of the devs among them say it is fine, probably, there's nearly no chance of this being changed.

OTOH this problem seems to be rather popular and 26 people of 34 voters say it should not work this way. Maybe, it is enough to at least hope for something?

Meglobob · #25 August 20th, 2008, 04:38 PM

ano there are reasons why the returning and scripting in general operates this way.

I believe in previous dominion versions alot of players moaned/complained about constantly wasting gems because there scripting was followed big spells were cast when they faced a small opposing force. Obviously in MP, players used to take advantage of this, hit them with a small force, via teleport/cloud trapeze, trigger the big spells in the magic phase. Then smash there army in the combat phase when they have no gems to cast there big spells. Even a hidden scout following your army does not help in this scenario.

Also, if returning is 100% then the astral golem increases vastly in power as there are fewer counters to it. So it would after be nerfed if returning was made 100% effective. It has been well known for along time that the astral golem's big vulnerability is magic duel and thus has to be used with due care.

ano · #26 August 20th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Astral golem is not that ultimate SC and maybe even not sc at all. It is rather vulnerable in fact even to good troops. And it is no better than well equipped sneaking raiding thugs who ruin your day. These guys also can hardly be dealt with and no one says it is bad.
As for AI algorithm, I think it is just fine because I was one of those people who liked leaving the whole enemy army without gems with a sudden magical attack (Call of the Winds the most often) in Dom PPP. It was a common tactic those days.
And as you could see, I'm not arguing about AI algorithm in general, just about one spell (or two, taking VoR into account) which is indeed very different from any other.

konming · #27 August 20th, 2008, 04:49 PM

I guess since there is a "AI do not cast" spell list, it is logical to have "AI do not overide" list. And if you really like unpredictability, I suppose we can have troops randomly ignore orders (like mages charge into front 1/10 of the time). That surely would spice things up.

Meglobob · #28 August 20th, 2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by konming

(like mages charge into front 1/10 of the time). That surely would spice things up.

I have actually already had this in Darwins Zorro! So it already exists in the game. It has to do with casting quickness. Wether its a bug or not I do not know. Probably start a thread when I have more time to discuss it.

konming · #29 August 20th, 2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meglobob

Quote:

Originally Posted by konming

(like mages charge into front 1/10 of the time). That surely would spice things up.

I have actually already had this in Darwins Zorro! So it already exists in the game. It has to do with casting quickness. Wether its a bug or not I do not know. Probably start a thread when I have more time to discuss it.

I think this means a mage has no more spell to cast and decides to "stay behind troops". If you give it "cast spells" order, I have never seen a mage move.

Meglobob · #30 August 20th, 2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by konming

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meglobob

Quote:

Originally Posted by konming

(like mages charge into front 1/10 of the time). That surely would spice things up.

I have actually already had this in Darwins Zorro! So it already exists in the game. It has to do with casting quickness. Wether its a bug or not I do not know. Probably start a thread when I have more time to discuss it.

I think this means a mage has no more spell to cast and decides to "stay behind troops". If you give it "cast spells" order, I have never seen a mage move.

No, my 6 mages where firing piercers, scripting went:-

Squad 1.

Mage 1 :- Aim, Quicken Self, Hold/Firex3, Fire&Flee3turns.
Mage 2 :- Quicken Self, Hold/Firex4, Fire&Flee3turns.
Mage 3 :- Quicken Self, Hold/Firex4, Fire&Flee3turns.

Squad 2.
Same.

In theory I should have had 6 14AN range 50 missile attacks with 25'ish precision every round. Which I did.

But instead of holding still at the back of the battlefield, they had, 'suicidal creep', which means after firing walk a few squares forward. They continue to do it until they meet enemy troops and get killed. They do not even try to stay behind my troops.

Obviously, this makes such a strategy with any bow/crossbow weapon useless.