Thoughts on balancing MA Man

[Aezeal]

Let's keep it simple

1. If man is not broken (your words and I agree)

2. Then do not try to fix it

[B0rsuk]

Zeldor said:
- make summonable stealthy beasts

Black Dog and Barghest cost death gems, Cu Sidhe is Nature. B's have Stealth +20, Cu Sidhe +0. Note that Black Dog has Dark Power +3, Barghest +2.

[Xietor]

Just because they are not broke, does not mean they should not be improved. There is a reason no one has won a mp game as ma man. Horst F Jens won a newbie game with them, but he was also in a mp game with me, lolomo, tuijdy, dr.p and several other experienced players and played Man there too. and fared much worse.

Man has severe limitations that appear in the midgame, and blossom in the late game. So while I stand by my assertion they are not broken, I also think they need help if they are ever to compete in bigger mp games. And man is still free
in Kingmaker, if you want to trade in EA Vanheim and play Man.

Nothing better to prove your point about Man needing no changes then leading them to a glorious victory in Kingmaker over 60 other players!

Plus, no one has refuted the logic of having a 3 move commander with forest survival to lead the koas.

And i would really like to see Man have a signature pretender, like the Gorgon is for Pangaea, where players are
sorely tempted to play Man just to play the Pretender. May
he/she could have a weapon that charms, like the tartarian chains enslaves. who knows. the possibilities are endless.

[cleveland]

How to balance MA Man?

Make KO play as them in the megagame

[Xietor]

He refused. He really wanted Yomi for balance reasons as well.

Ko is smart enough to see the issues that man has. Whether he thinks they warrant an investment of his time is another matter.

Ulm was so bad they were actively hunted like a doorprize at the start of mp games, with the winner being the race closest to ma ulm's capital and the prize being a 2nd capital before the start of the 2nd year.

So Ulm was very bad, and yes, broke. Man is not broke since they can do ok in the early game.

[Agema]

I've played MA man on MP.

Xietor is right that Man has a lot of deficiencies. Crones aren't quite good enough air mages normally, and the storm-storm power wrecks the longbowmen. They've no great thug tactic - Lord Wardens fall short. They've poor bless tactics, as Wardens are really expensive for what you get - mediocre HP, snail speed movement, unexceptional stats. KOA are horrendously expensive, and still die like dogs when mid-level battle magics fly. Magic paths are limited. Nature can eventually get Death via lamia queens, but it's too little too late.

Your pretender points need to go on good scales, and rainbow magic picks to cover weak magic paths. You might also want your pretender ready for combat ASAP in case you get rushed.

Man makes quick work of independents, and are reasonable in the early game where the longbowmen are awesome. After that, things go rapidly downhill.

Most of his suggestions are fairly sound. I would dispute the need a mapmove 3 leader though. It'd be funky, sure, but Man is an air nation that can make flying boots.

[Xietor]

My mapmove 3 forest survival commander is thematic in nature as well. Why not a KOA commander? Of course you then have to choose between a crone, a KOA commander, and a daughter of Avalon, but I am sure most players would recruit a few.

They could give Man a decent thug as well as giving them a thematic leader for a group of koas that could strike 3 provinces away.

[thejeff]

Those are essentially my conclusions as well.

Except to nit-pick that you can't get to Death through Lamia Queens without already having some.

I never tried make Lord Warden thugs, without a bless they didn't seem at all up to it.
I did use some KoA and they did well, especially fog warriored and regenerating, but never had many of them.
A KoA thuggable commander would be nice. More survivable than the Lord Warden. The 3 move is just icing on the cake.

I hadn't thought of using the dogs as stealth raiders. Possible, especially since Mothers are stealthy. Still, they're expensive for what you get, unless you get a bless for them.

I'd disagree with the comments about the Crone's diversity. A chance at 1E or 1W is diverse magic? Water can at least get to 2 for site searching, but 1 Earth is largely useless.
The high Nature is good, but they don't have enough Air for boosters or Air Queens, so the pretender has to cover that.
I'd really like to see a little more magic on the Crones. They really need a decent chance at Air 4. Maybe bump up the 10% random, or have separate 10% chances at Air, Earth and Water.
Or some national mage summons?

I think you can get away with a sleeping pretender, longbows and lightning spam will keep most nations from rushing you right away. That's good because you need the points. Death access, Air boosters, maybe Astral (RoW instead of Air boosters), Earth for hammers and boots would be nice.

Most of the discussion has been about Man as an Air nation, but they've actually got better Nature magic. Is there any way to capitalize on that? I wasn't able to find one. There doesn't seem much synergy between the two. (Though Fog Warriors and Mass Regen makes for long battles)

[MaxWilson]

Use Nature magic to charm away mages from other nations and increase diversity?

-Max

[Xietor]

Charm is way down the wrong tree for man though.

Though I likely will not host a game anytime soon, I think the next one I do host will add a KOA commander for man, and remove the crones old age. Not that those changes will in any way put Man on an equal playing field with Pythium, ermor etc., it will help a bit. In fact, they likely will still reside in the bottom 10 percent.

Are there any other n mages, who get no f, d or s magic, that start with extreme old age? Crones or hags are commonly understood as having long life spans(old), but with a mastery of nature magic perhaps that does not necessarily mean they suffer the effects of old age as a normal human does.