Scales You Should Never Take?

[Endoperez]

Order/Luck is very good, but also very expensive. Most nations have trouble getting the points for it.

[Omnirizon]

are there any side effects to taking heat/cold scales (besides what's listed: - gold/supplies)

If you take 3 heat/cold to fund 3 order + growth (split up however you like), you will make a net gain in gold (especially considering the growth scale over the long run) and break even or just under on supplies. On top of that, taking 3 heat/cold is really only like taking 2.5 heat/cold (giving you a .5 scale in points worth) because half the time that scale doesn't match dominion, so if it is already maxed out in your dominion, you get the points for it but it will never randomly (or by seasons, whatever) go higher than three; and will often the time be under three (thus you only take a 2.5 effects worth of negative scale for 3 scales worth of points).

Unless there is some unstated side effect to having a very high heat/cold, this just seems like a no-brainer to take.

[vfb]

You're not necessarily funding order with those 120 points, if you've bought an expensive pretender. Effectively, you're buying 120 design points by paying a 12.5% penalty on your gold income. Whether that's a good idea or not depends on how much you need that gold, and what you're buying with those points.

One point in favor of temperature-3 scales that you don't mention is that if you have an SC god with immunity to your temperature scale, he won't suffer the encumbrance penalty that most indies or armies will. And he might also get an improved aura or extra power.

[Kristoffer O]

I tend to take death all the time. I do not consider myself a rusher, but unless you continue to expand some one else will and you have lost. SInce you have to expand if you are a long term player and not comfortable with a petty war with your annoying neighbour (which I often appreciate more) you have to take scales and a god thet is initially strong, and that means a death scale for points.

So a death scale is actually a good way of long term planning. As long as you don't get stuck in a war there is no reason not to take it. If you on the other hand feel satisfied and complacent after having taken another nation your death scales might take effect. Then you know you are not making enough war.

Heat might be a no brainer unless you want as much income as possible, or if you end up next to abysia or some such.

[Endoperez]

vfb said:
One point in favor of temperature-3 scales that you don't mention is that if you have an SC god with immunity to your temperature scale, he won't suffer the encumbrance penalty that most indies or armies will. And he might also get an improved aura or extra power.

In case you didn't know, that encumberance penalty is +2 enc for everyone without fire/cold resistance, as appopriate, when fighting in extreme temperature. I think it's heat 2 or cold 2, but it might be heat 3/cold 3 as well.

Cold scale will hose cold-blooded creatures, strengthen Chill, weaken Heat, strengthen Murdering Winter cast at you (bad!), and change Water Elementals into Ice Elementals. Heat scale will do the opposite, except that I'm not sure if Heat scale makes Flames from the Sky etc more powerful.

[Wick]

OmikronWarrior said:
Taking additional hot/cold nets you -5% gold, which ain't good.

Remember summer, winter, and that the scale is capped at 3. Taking your base temperature is -2.5%, one scale adds -2.5%, subsequent but not capped scales are -5% each, and the capped scale is -3.75%, unless it's also the first in which case it's just -1.25%! Being one scale off is usually a good idea.

[Corwin]

I often take Misfortune 3 Order 3 scales. I won about 30%-40% of MP Dominions games I've played over the last few years. Misfortune 3 is not really as scary as many people believe, and sometimes you can even turn it to your advantage.

[Xietor]

I have to disagree with the fast expansion theory in mp games. I think steady expansion may be better. If you top the chart in provinces, you are often torn apart by the dog pile.

And fast expansion with poor defenses really means nothing as you can lose those provinces fairly easily. In a 10+ mp game, the longterm income you throw away by taking death rather than growth is significant.

There is a chart someone made that had the turn when 3 growth provided as much income as 3 order. forget the turn number, but it was not super high.

And I never take an awake pretender(though i am picky of the races i play too), though i will only take an imprisoned one if i am playing a good bless nation. With a sleeping pretender there is almost never a need to take d sclaes.

[OmikronWarrior]

I did the growth and death charts. Search for "Growth and Death by the Numbers." The break even point for choosing Growth-3 instead of Order-3 is turn 43. Coincidently, the fall behind point for Choosing Death-3 to pay for Order-3 is also turn 43, assuming you don't get any plague events, which is an enormous assumption.

Of course, thats just theoretical speaking. The real power of Growth is to combine it with Order to really rack up the multipliers. If you happen to have old mages to worry about, it pays for itself in other ways as well.

[Corwin]

OmikronWarrior said:
I did the growth and death charts. Search for "Growth and Death by the Numbers." The break even point for choosing Growth-3 instead of Order-3 is turn 43. Coincidently, the fall behind point for Choosing Death-3 to pay for Order-3 is also turn 43, assuming you don't get any plague events, which is an enormous assumption.

But in addition to these calculations one should also take into account that extra 200 gold in the beginning of the game "worth" significantly more to the player than the same 200 gold much later.