Austrian OOB, old and new

[PlasmaKrab]

Btw regarding intergrated CG into squad, very rare as SOP for both LAW and CG is to fire two at a target, b/c if you miss things get a bit hot...the new BH2010 is putting the CG into the squad, which pissed people off, because they don`t get the changed requirements in austria (the CG really used here in FIBUA.

You mean both CGs in a platoon would generally be fired at the same target simultaneously?
If so, one option (that would severely restrict operations) would be to fit both weapons together in an 8-men AT team. That plus putting one sniper inside the command squad as Shan said would leave room for the trucks and the motor J�ger platoon would fit the slots available.
This solution lacks elegance if you ask me. I've used it for recent French mech platoons and it doesn't work that well compared to two separate AT units (whether stand-alone or in a squad).

Puch G or Pinz 4 (with M2) were used in KoPoSiPo function, but uparmouring is a bit dicy, you're right. Maybe just give it a 1 frontal armour (for the shield)? pls? )

No can do
From the Player Info.txt help file:

Soft vehicles like trucks and jeeps should NEVER have armour in front of 1. Doing that screws up the ammo selection routine in the game.

Units with any 1 armor point on whichever side will always be considered armor, will be fired at with AP/Sabot/HEAT rounds and if hit and penetrated will blow up just like any other armored unit, instead of going with the crew-killing routine of unarmored units.
If that's armored trucks you're after, give them 1 armor all over. If it's just an unarmored truck with a gun shield, keep 0 all over, anyway the gun shield doesn't provide that much coverage in the first place, in regard of the whole vehicle.

On vision, rifle-mounted starlight scopes should give you 5-10 or so, correct me if you have figures of night-fighting range. IDK what is the convention about rifle squads with one only NV device for the whole squad.

[Shan]

I need to know how many we need in Jaeger company... going by a headcound won't do, but anyway: 1 Jaeger platoon has 5+3x8+2x4+3+2x1 = 42 men so far... by the way - in the old OOB some Rifle squads have 8 men, some have 10... standard would be 8 I guess, should 10 men squads be deleted?

Then we have the heavy platoon minus detachments - to be called sJgZg(-) or ?? - with 1x3 men ZgTrp (doubtful usefulness, better drop them) and 2x 4 men 81mm mortar teams and a single mortar per team - Siddhi, you proposed 6 men, should I change it to 6? - totalling between 8 (now, minus commander) and 15 men

Then the 'Support Platoon' - to be called Zugtrupp or how? - with 3x5men, very questionable use... and the KpKdt, with 8 men - my suggestion, as opposed to CO and XO with 4 each... but we probably reduce that to 6, as 8 men won't fit into a single light vehicle and we'd need Pinzgauer4x4 instead...

--> total headcount: 8 + 3x42 + ~15 + 15 = maximum: 164, minimum: around 140;

- so I figured we need around 10x Steyr 680 + 1 Haflinger + ~2-3 Pinzgauer 4x4 - that would again cover the maximum... or, if we have 1 Pinzgauer 4x4 per platoon, we could trade 3 trucks for Pinzgauers ---

These vehicles could be organized into 3 transport platoons with maybe even a small guard section for each... then we could also cancel the 'support' platoon and have a useful role for its men - as Siddhi said, protecting transports. The heavy platoon should retain its own vehicles, and the KpKdt has a detached vehicle as well.

[PlasmaKrab]

Regarding these "support" sections (Zugtruppe?), what is their use supposed to be? Rear-guard protection of the support assets? Also what kit do they use and what is their training level? I guess they could be added for some purpose (say a separate "security platoon").

Regarding J�ger comapny support, how about using the existing Motor Mortar Section (formation #67) in the company TOE? Maybe giving it two trucks instead of one if we go for 6 men per team). That's in the case where the platoons have their own trucks, of course.
In the case of dismounted platoons with integral CG teams, each platoon needing 2 medium and 1 light truck, the company could do with one large transport platoon including 6 medium and 4 light trucks (the 4th light truck carries the mortar teams). Two utility vehicles (or one and a light truck, depending on the size given to the company command section) would have to be provided for the command section and the FO (optional IMHO).

Shan, regarding support sections added to transport platoons, consider that there will be instances where people will want to buy trucks without the additional infantry topping (if only because you have to carry those too). If you go for this organization, better put them in the J�ger formation but make the "transport platoon +infantry" non-buyable by giving it a nation code of 0.

Siddhi, is there any chance a J�ger company would get a double AT team serving, with a second six teams in the support platoon? If not at all, then there shouldn't be AT-equipped platoons and full support platoons available together.

[Siddhi]

The "ZugTrupp" is the Platoon command section, not support, so the first unit of the platoon.

The Support platoon is the Company Heavy weapons platoon, called (then) "S-Zug" (Schwere J�ger - Heavy J�ger - because these boys can carry). The BN support is called "S-Kompanie".

The actual support sections of the company (resupply etc.) were represented as the three "support sections" after the CO and XO squads. As we agreed they can be removed.

I don't think there is a point in having an extra gaurd for the vehicles, as they are the drivers themselves. However, we could give the trucks an Stg-77 each ).

On "vision" IDK either...i would however give the squad the entire squad the rating, unless someone says otherwise.

The "J�ger 8" is the cornerstone of the J�ger and is always the same (you can make a nice little infantry formation called "sch�tzenigel" - "rifle porcupine", star formation with the group commander in the middle), however for the Milita units (Landwehr) we will give them 10 men as these are "over-manned" units, with less NCOs and more infantry.

We will have to leave the CG squads teams seperate for the reasons you say.


"Landwehr" (Milita) Company
Gerenric local defense militia, there are a few "special" ones that we will get to. These guys are also going to take the role of the "Sicherungstruppen" (Security troops)
but not fortress troops
Exp:-3, Moral: 0

From 1979-85 two versions, "old" with Stg-58, MG-42, Miniman, "new" as with normal J�ger


1 x CO Command Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)
1x XO Section (4 men) (stg-77, pistol)

3x �J�ger� Platoon:
1 x Command Section: (5 men)
Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
3 x �J�ger� Squads ( 10 men)
(as currently listed: Stg-77, MG-72, LAW (3), Grenade)
1 x Sniper SSG-69 (1 man)
1 x CG Team (as listed under J�ger)

1 x �Heavy J�ger� (S)Platoon:
1 x Command Section ( 3 men), normal class, Stg-77 (Stg-58) Pistol, Grenade
2 x "Pinoneer" (Engineer) Squads
2 x rPAK (106mm ATGs, OR 85mm ATGs)
2 x 81mm mortar teams (6 men)
2 x M2 AAHMG Teams


"Landwehr" (Milita) Platoon
As above, independant units for securing bridges etc.
Exp: -3 Moral: 0

1 x Command Section: (5 men)
Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
3 x �J�ger� Squads ( 10 men)
(as currently listed: Stg-77, MG-72, LAW (3), Grenade)
1 AAHMG (m2 on lafette, mobile) (3 man)

[Siddhi]

Generally I am for the Company transport having a seperate "Company Transport" section if we cannot cover all the units organically. The problem is this is the real OOB (for that time) with already quite a few vehicles less (actual company strength of around 180), incl. all the commander's vehicles. Given the importance of playability I defer to (both of your) judgement on this - for PK's mod you have some of my info on advanced/alternative weapons systems anyway.

Another reason to have the company transport seperate is that the there should be a cateory for "civilian transport" in platoon strength, as on MOB every single civilian heavy vehicle (and motorcycles etc.) was to be drafted into the army (all truck owners to this day recieved on purchase of their vehicle "army marching orders" where to park their vehicle in emergency. This platoon or company sized unit should just be "civilian" or "mobilised tranport" and are only civilian vehicles, at, of course, a much reduced price compared to the army vehicles.

A friend recently admonished me for saying that the platoon frontage was 150m - while correct in some cases it is intended to be able to cover up to 400m of frontage in the "extended line" defence (this is not possible in SPMBT - in effect this a squad deployed on line, not a "continous line" o/c however). We will see how this becomes a problem with the "Fortress units" which played a vital role and were screened by infantry in trenches.

[Siddhi]

"Jagdkampf"
The "Jagdkampf" units (not to be confused with the "Jagdkommando" Commando troops)were specilaly trained "local" milita soldiers that were part of specific defence territories that were categorised as "area defence zones", areas which were not defended by mobile (armored) troops but only by delaying forces that had two jobs: delay the enemy advance by harassement and, once occupied, combat the enemy via guerrilia war (for which a huge network of supply and shelter bunkers was built). Thus these units were dedicated "stay-behind" guerrilla force that in Europe can only be compared to the Norwegian Home Gaurd units. Their training level and motivation was comparativly high. Over 22 BNs of such infantry were could have been activated under 24hours.

Note: These untis were goupped in "Jagdkampf BNs" however would never deploy over a company at a time, and seldom even a platoon, hence the platoon formations are used. Also, due to variety of tasks, they sometimes used very interesting "ancient" equipment, if necassary.

All troops should be categorised either as scouts (due to their emphasis on concealment) or rangers

"Jagdkampf" Platoon (AT)
This represents a classic "spitzenbek�mpfung" (spearhead delay") force. They would simply stop the reccon elements and force the unit to deploy, and then retire.
Here again, "old" and "new" units, as with "Landwehr"
Exp:0, Moral:+3

1 x Command Section: (5 men)
Stg-77, sniper rifle, Pistol, Grenade
3 x �J�ger� Squads ( 8 men)
(as currently listed: Stg-77, MG-72, LAW (3), Grenade)
1 x Sniper SSG-69 (1 man)
2 x CG Teams

"Jagdkampf" Platoon (DA)
Core duty included direct-action missions against HQ units and as well as ambush functions. In this case, for "old" units, the Stg-59 was NOT taken as it was too heavy, instead, the M1 Carabine and together with the MP40 SMG (!)

1 x Command Section: (4 men)
Stg-77, Pistol, Grenade
2 x "Jagdkampf" Squads (8 men) NEW: Stg-77, MPi-69 (SMG)/ OLD: m1 carabine, MP40 SMG, BOTH LAW (3), Satchel Charge
2 x "Jagdkampf Fireteam" Squads (4 men) (2x MG-72/42, Stg-77, gernade)
2 x CG Teams
2 x Sniper

"Jagdkampf" Scout
Needs to be included simply b/c other countries seem to have something similar.
Exp:0, Moral:+3

1x "Jagdkampf Scout" Section (3 men), Stg-77, Sniper rifle, grenade PLUS RADIO

"Jagdkampf" Observation bunker
Exp:0, Moral:+3
These poor sods got extremly well camoflogued 2-man bunkers that were in effect invisble and - given that they were supposed to stay there for many days at a time, miserable.

1x "hidden observation bunker" tbd(2 men), Stg-77, gernade, radio, POSSIBLY FO function, tbd

I have debated adding a single 81mm motor, as was often the case, however worry about ye old gameplay. Howeve they were very important, so maye we should add a "Jagdkampf" 81mm motor unit as well (independant)

[PlasmaKrab]

We'll have to see what unit classes to use. Rangers get hand-to-hand combat bonus apparently. "Irregulars" class can be used too for the DA sections, the result could be the same.

IDK which exp/morale ratings these guys should get. As far as I've understood, they are kind of "elite reserve" local militia? IMHO and to put it short, they should get slightly less experience (say -3,-5) but slightly more morale, on account of being locally-mobilized defences, certainly quite eager to defend their own land and home.

For the observation bunkers, probably something like the Vietnamese spider holes (minus sniper rifles), so I'd say a fortification with size 0, maybe copied as a FO unit with an X3 radio code?
BTW, where are these 81mm mortars you hesitated about supposed to go? In Jagdkampf platoons?

[Shan]

Warning: this is intended for R&D only, basically for Siddhi, Plasmakrab and me... everyone else, download at your own risk! I recommend installing it in the custom OOB folder.

Guys,

I worked this over many times and this is the result: The modified Jaegerkompanie, 1/1979-12/2004. I added the new units and formations at the end of the existing OOB to make it more obvious. I changed in-and out of service dates for the old Jaeger formations to avoid confusion but there are still some overlaps - mid-80s till 90s, however, should be fine.
I had to play around with using different unit classes for the company commander, platoon commander and support platoon commander but now it should work out that every platoon and company has the right commander.

I got 3 versions now: Jaegerkompanie - without transports, Jaegerkompanie(mot) and Jaegerkompanie(mot)* - the latter has its 12.7mm MGs mounted on the transport platoons' Pinzgauers as proposed. Be careful to use the one with sMG - I also added one with a MG74 but that may find some use later for the reconnaissance units. I crewed them up with 3 men but added no armor or other things - maybe I should add a radio though, will do so later.

I made couple of changes that appeared to be practical to me - the mot. support platoon (sJgZg mot) now got 2 Haflinger and 2 trucks instead of 1 Haflinger, 1 Pinzgauer 4x4 and 2 trucks - it is over-supplied with transports anyway and still is now... you have the luxury to be able to have each of its 4 units carried by its own vehicle...

Questions @Siddi + other changes made:
- Names ??
- mortar squads: 1 mortar per squad? - needs 6 men as u said or can we do with 4 as is?
- MPi69: appears as sidearm of several support units but was AFAIK never used as such, only for Jagdkommando - I therefore started exchanging it for StGs
- Rocket Launcher: 2 versions are in the game - 130mm and 128mm - phased out long ago but when? Correct designation?
- Size of A/T teams: generally was 0 for 2-man teams but for our 4-man team I changed it to 1
- gradual improvement of vision, fire control and rangefinder ratings of observers (now called BeobTrp) and snipers?
- PzF3 appears in our OOB from 1990 I think... that sounds like a joke, I was trained how to use Miniman in the late 90s...
- I marked several units that should probably be deletedwith a "-" before their name and partly re-classed them to make them unusable - such as Centurion tanks, etc
- introduction of cluster ammo for artillery? Phasing-out dates for old artillery weapons?
- GHN45 will need to be eliminated and changed for M-109 as off-map artillery
- made a couple of other changes, will keep a record on them, but no need to discuss now


Alright, Siddhi please check it out and tell me if I can go on like this! It took some time to get used to the Mobhack but now I am on it and could do the other units pretty easily as well...

Shan (Shanliang de Shan--- wo bu shi nege 'Da Shan'... )

[Siddhi]

well they prolly should not have "hand to hand" bonus, but should be less "visible", therefore perhaps all as "scout" class?

i'm not sure about giving them any malus on experience, as they really were "elite reserves" in a way, spent most of their active army time purly training and had a special rather long "jagdkampf" education. also were by far the most active in their reserve training (they also, at least some of them, had their rifles and ammo at home, unique in the austrian army). We could give them a +5 in moral, but i would do more then that, i would not give them any subtraction on experience.

the "observation bunkers" exist IIRC in the swedish(?) ORBAT, we can adapt them. spider hole would be inaccurate as it is not fortified.

the 81mm motors were sometimes attached to the jadkampf units, primarily to provide supressing fire/illumination as well as smoke cover. however adding them makes them to powerful, i would make a seperate section "jagdjkampf motor team" and leave it at that.

[Siddhi]

Excellent Shan, PK please have a look, I will be unable to do so until sunday at the earliest (and with luck) but you have given enough info.

your changes and formations seem completly sensible FMPOV, the emphasis should be on playability and it looks like you have done that.

- names: i would keep it in english as IIRC that is the convention
- motor squad: use the game default in this case instead, however if there is difference in the RoF for having 6 instead of 4 men please keep it at 6 (there would be a reason for that number after all)
- MPi69: correct, except for "Jagdkampf" milita units.
- MRL: the (czech) 130mm was replaced by the austrian Styer 680M3 128mm, my guess is around 1980. The last 680s were taken out of service when the M-109A2/A3 (�) were introduced, so say 1994.
size of AT teams: dunno if i agree, the extra guys are purly ammo carriers who would be flat on the ground, should not add to the size of the unit
- PzF3 is a joke, shouldn't be there. BTW if you shot the PAR70 as i persume you did that is the LAW, not miniman, the simple test is if you shot the training rocket(you know the tracer-like thing) or the 9mm tracer bullet: you cannot fire the tracer-trainng rocket from the miniman so it was the LAW - the "cadre" very often have no idea what the international designations are and often get it confused the miniman anyway should have been long gone by then (introduced in 1966)
- can't comment on this as i will not be able to check the OOB for a bit, you a rigtht o/c about centurion, NO cluster ammo however (sadly). old arty weapons are nearlly all in storage and were not sold (very low storage costs), i would not remove them from the OOB at all, just lower price.

sounds great! have fun with the "jagdkampf" - we`re going to need some more pictures )

btw: wo renishi "da shan" - ta shi yi wei ka-na-da de ren, jiao "mark roswell" gen zhen de hao war )