Caelum vs. T'ien Ch'i

[Cainehill]

Alneyan said:
If you did want to bother Caelum, why not give them an enforced Astral path on their mages? Astral 1 is a curse, and Caelum does not strike me as a nation able to get much us from the low Astral spells (such as Body Ethereal and the like). It will, however, make Caelum closer to T'ien Ch'i, though only one of T'ien Ch'i mages have a mandatory Astral path.

How would you adjust the current paths (A3W2?1) for the astral? I don't think you can reduce Air on them, and don't think you want to simply add the Astral. Deleting the random doesn't work for me, so the only viable alternative would be dropped 1 water.

But then - Caelum winds up with plenty of mages to cast Arcane Probing to find the astral gems, can get S2 without empowerment to forge Starshine Skullcaps, and can field hordes of mages with astral for communion, allowing the lead mage to easily get to A7 or W5 for some really nasty battle field clearing spells like Niefel Flames or Shimmering Fields.

Adding Astral seems like it would empower Caelum's mages more than weakening them.

[The Panther]

I find it interesting that a steadfast Abysia player (Cohen) wants his personal race beefed up and a confirmed Caelum player (Cainehill) wants the most powerful nation left alone so it can continue to be too strong! To each his own!

As far as Spring and Autumn, I did not include that in my original comparison. Like me, most people get immediately turned off by the forced turmoil. And because Order (OK, maybe Magic too) is the single most important scale, S&A is heavily penalized by this.

Also, on the subject of summons, the base TC unique summons Celestial Soldiers are just too expensive in terms of air gem cost to be useful in bulk. I would rather save up air gems to try and get an air queen.

Really, TC just has nothing going for it. One of the best Posts above was Zen telling how he had to hide, appear weak, and cajole his opponents into leaving him mostly alone in order to win as T'ien Ch'i. Maybe this remains as the only known TC win on a big map. Certainly, not to take away anything from that incredible discussion of skill, since everybody knows TC is so weak and not a big threat, Zen could get away with this!

Also, the fact that you have to rely on a weak mage with W1?1P2 to do anything at all just confirms the problems with TC. I would much rather rely on a horror-spamming A2W1 Seraph to fight key battles.

The fact that the national troops of either race are very weak is close to meaningless. I mean, look at the race with the WORST national troops, Mictlan. Not many people consider Mictlan all that weak. Until they somehow eventually fix the problem of the national troops being pretty much useless other than fodder after turn 40 or so, this won't even be an issue in my mind.

[Alneyan]

I keep on forgetting Caelum gets more mages than most nations; thanks for reminding me that little, annoying detail (playing T'ien Ch'i or Man simply does not prepare me for the "recruitable everywhere" Caelum case).

On a not-so related matter, would Fire Vulnerability affect an unit when being attacked with Fires/Flames from Afar? If so, it might be something to add to these Caelum mages. They are quite connected to cold, and being vulnerable to fire because of this would seem a nice little addition. How bothering would this be?

Forgive me if I sound na�ve, but I have very little experience with fighting Caelum, and so have yet to be involved in a major fight with them. Because of this, the above proposal is merely an odd idea, much like the Astral one, and does not claim to be the absolute truth, or even a good suggestion at all.

[Zen]

The Panther said:
Really, TC just has nothing going for it. One of the best Posts above was Zen telling how he had to hide, appear weak, and cajole his opponents into leaving him mostly alone in order to win as T'ien Ch'i. Maybe this remains as the only known TC win on a big map. Certainly, not to take away anything from that incredible discussion of skill, since everybody knows TC is so weak and not a big threat, Zen could get away with this!

I didn't say they didn't have anything going for it. Obviously in order to accomplish that win I had to have a significant gem income, which TC excels at searching multiple paths. A strong starting force with the appropriate combination (high numbers of early archers) and the ability to research significantly.

Also, the fact that you have to rely on a weak mage with W1?1P2 to do anything at all just confirms the problems with TC. I would much rather rely on a horror-spamming A2W1 Seraph to fight key battles.

Actually, the MoTW is not a weak mage by standard of efficency and usefulness or cost. Quickness, Frozen Heart, False Horror, Banishment, combined with the ability to blood hunt easily if you are utilizing them to their full effectiveness (by building them *everywhere*) make them adaptable to whatever role you happen to need as long as you provide the stopping power to actually use them instead of being devoured by SC's.

This is actually why I was able to do what I did because I was able to adapt my defense to the multitude of nations and tactics that I faced during the course of the game.

[Tuidjy]

I think Caelum is overrated as 'the' most powerful nation. Caelum is
extremely strong in early-mid game. Unfortunately for them, unless they
are lucky with independants, there comes a point where wimpy air/water
mages just do not cut it, and there are only three airqueens... Caelum
has no monopoly on these, no matter what Saint Cohen wants you to believe.

A Caelum player has to expand agressively, and has to get rid of Pythium,
Vanheim, and C'tis. If he fails to do so, after turn 30, he will lose.
Given that Caelum is the Gamebreaker-du-jour, I expect to see it gather
the unhealthy attention that Ermor did when it was in the spotlight.

As for T'ien Ch'i, I agree they need something. I would suggest a half
way decent mage that can be recruited anywhere.

[Cainehill]

The Panther said:
I find it interesting that a steadfast Abysia player (Cohen) wants his personal race beefed up and a confirmed Caelum player (Cainehill) wants the most powerful nation left alone so it can continue to be too strong! To each his own!

Confirmed Caelum player? Heh. My net Caelum experience is ... two MP games, both ongoing. More proper to say that I'm a confirmed Vanheim and CW Pangaea player.

And I'm also arguing against a change that was proposed to weaken Caelum, because it (giving them forced astral) would IMO actually strengthen them.

Changes that I think _could_ be made would be tweaking the costs a little bit -- anything more than 10/20 more gold would be too much, or making the high seraph capital only.

[The Panther]

What???? Only two games as Caelum?

How did you manage to be playing BOTH those games against little 'ol me??? And recently too???

Probably bad luck on my part, darn it all.

[Arryn]

Cainehill said:
Confirmed Caelum player? Heh.

Get used to it. I got tarred by Zen months ago as a "confirmed Jotun player", only because I played it twice in MP games he was in, and I wrote an AAR based on Utgard. My preferred nation (at the moment) is actually R'leyh, though I also have some fondness for Caelum and Ulm.

If I was going to try to nerf Caelum, I'd consider making *both* seraph types capital-only, leave their costs alone, and make the random pick (or one of them in the case of the high seraph) elemental-only. To balance this and make the use of mammoths more viable beyond the early game, I'd make wingless recruitable at any fort.

[Cohen]

With BOTH seraph type capitol only their research and expansion will be totally screwed up since it's based on Mages.

IMO a cost raising is fine. But not of 10 or 20 gold ... well I've done this in my mod.

Answering Tujidi:
Being strong in EARLY-MID game means having a damn good basis of provinces, gem income and research for late game.
Caelum can clam too for late game...

I'm fully conveinced Caelum is uber strong.

[Cainehill]

Arryn said:

Get used to it. I got tarred by Zen months ago as a "confirmed Jotun player", only because I played it twice in MP games he was in, and I wrote an AAR based on Utgard. My preferred nation (at the moment) is actually R'leyh, though I also have some fondness for Caelum and Ulm.

If I was going to try to nerf Caelum, I'd consider making *both* seraph types capital-only, leave their costs alone, and make the random pick (or one of them in the case of the high seraph) elemental-only. To balance this and make the use of mammoths more viable beyond the early game, I'd make wingless recruitable at any fort.

I think you haven't played Caelum lately. The baby seraph doesn't have a random, the daddy seraph has a single random, and making them both capital only leaves Caelum with ... no mages recruitable outside the capital. That'd really put a crimp in their style, having to find independent mages to get any research going. "Ooooh! We have found illusionists, and the nation is rejoicing!"

Making the high seraph's random elemental only would limit Caelum somewhat, although it'd also make getting A4 or W3 easier for them - probably a weakening overall, since getting death or nature on them is so handy.