common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
[QB]but due to their lack of ap even if you get a value of 20 from adding weapondamage + strenght you only make 0.131 avg. damage against a 30 protection unit .[QB]

That's just the average damage. Consider what happens when 100 of those arrows hit at once.

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

quote:

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Originally posted by vigabrand:

Well I ran into a snag using mechanicals. Recently, I was fighting a VQ with mechanical men, and an iron dragon. The VQ was the only one on the field, so I couldn't stop my dragon from attacking after 2 rounds, so it gets there before my troops do. The VQ was hitting it and getting hp from it, and she finally kills it. My mechanical men get there and mostly surround her, and she continues to hit them and gain hp, and she eventually wiped out like 80% of my troops. Next go around I was able to cast weapons of sharpness on my mech men and managed to kill her quick enough before she did too much damage. I was under the assumption that mechanical units were not alive and wouldn't aid life drainers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

You know, I think life drain may be broken in a couple of respects. I could swear too that I had seen a lifedrainer gain HP from constructs and from undead at some points.

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no vq has regeneration .
that is the source for her additional life .

[vigabrand]

Boron, I don't think it was regen. She was getting more hp than she started with. I didn't think regen could do that.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
That's just the average damage. Consider what happens when 100 of those arrows hit at once.

hm do they really hit you during buffing ?
if you place rearmost on the battle field ?
even with wind guide on i doubt that you land much hits. against these first few hits you could wear a cheap armor which ensures that you survive at least .

again the important numbers :

flaming arrows has 8 ap damage .
avg. damage on a 20 protection unit : 1.29
avg. damage on a 30 protection unit : 0.321

the normal x-bow missile : marignon :
10 ap damage :
so avg. damage on 20 protection : 2.13
" " " " 30 " : 0.570

protection 30 is if you aim at it really early available ( turn 10 ca. ) with invulnerability .
any sc with 3 earth can cast it .

if you have only flaming arrows even when meeleeing the archers the friendly fire casualities will be very high.
you would need to get about 50-60 damage against a vq in friendly dominion at least .
given the not too frightening looking avg. damage of "only" 0.570 and 0.321 it seems to me if you don't have hyperlarge amounts of 100+ x-bows you have still bad odds defeating even an almost unequipped vq .

if the army is really e.g. 200 x-bows than i of course wouldn't attack with a vq only .

or maybe
when you face only weak opposition the ai overrides your gem costing battle scripts .
so 1 unit against 100+ should be weak opposition .
so normally the ai should override the use of wind guide + flaming arrows shouldn't it ?

[Boron]

Originally posted by vigabrand:
Boron, I don't think it was regen. She was getting more hp than she started with. I didn't think regen could do that.

hm perhaps . did the vq have only lifedrain or soul vortex too ?

iirc there was some time ago a thread where ppl said that with the life drain attack of ghosts something is wrong.
because lifedrain of the ghosts is the basic attack and for the unequipped vq too then when it seems to be buggy in the ghosts it could be with the vq too.

would require lots of testing unfortunately :
test unequipped life drain attack
test wraith sword etc. life drain
test soul vortex
test soul vortex cast via items

[Kel]

Originally posted by Boron:
yeah i take that into account .
that means 50% of the hits fail through luck from luck ammy right ?

Yes.

furthermore a minotaur has 27 hp so he will survive 1 damage shield attack right ?

Yes but are you assuming that one round is going to kill the SC ? I mean, how do you even propose to get an SC completely surrounded by maenads before anyone strikes a blow ? Flight ?

If you don't, see the next comment...

concerning life steal :
the pretender replenishes the same amount than he does as damage right ?

It doesn't really replenish. That is, I have observed that it can take you above the hp you started with. So the first few little guys that rush in will actually make the life drainer stronger.

because flaming arrows shouldn't work according to saber cherry's dice odds

I haven't looked at the statistics but mass wind guided flaming crossbows, even one or the other, are quite effective in my experience. Obviously it depends a bit on the SC.

i wouldn't rely on that .
staff of storm lets you use only 50% of missiles or precision is -5 one of the 2 iirc .

So now we are assuming that there is someone else there to hold the SoS, right ? I mean, we have to add that, right, since he wouldn't be wielding it himself, if he was a melee SC. Of course, once we start adding things, you can't count on anything. What if he has phoenix pyre on ? What if he brings along a couple of cheap troops (like vamps with the VQ you used in the example) so he isn't easily surrounded ? What if he has more than 50-100 hp ? What about his innate aura, like breath of winter, chill, what not ?

I mean, it certainly can work...and it's something you could do if the situation arose but having it as your start strategy and planning your research around it...well, I haven't tried it so let me know how it goes in play ?

- Kel

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
hm do they really hit you during buffing ?

Yes, they can hit you during buffing, and they can hit you once you start to attack as well.

against these first few hits you could wear a cheap armor which ensures that you survive at least .

It definetly doesn't ensure that you survive. Crossbows can take down 30 protection SC's by themselves, and those are only 10 damage.

flaming arrows has 8 ap damage .
avg. damage on a 20 protection unit : 1.29
avg. damage on a 30 protection unit : 0.321

You are placing too much emphasis on the average damage. From experience I know that armour piercing weapons with even low damage can get through 30 protection enough times to kill a SC.

when you face only weak opposition the ai overrides your gem costing battle scripts .
so 1 unit against 100+ should be weak opposition .
so normally the ai should override the use of wind guide + flaming arrows shouldn't it ?

The AI is willing to use gems against single powerful opponents.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by vigabrand:
[Well I ran into a snag using mechanicals. Recently, I was fighting a VQ with mechanical men, and an iron dragon. The VQ was the only one on the field, so I couldn't stop my dragon from attacking after 2 rounds, so it gets there before my troops do. The VQ was hitting it and getting hp from it, and she finally kills it. My mechanical men get there and mostly surround her, and she continues to hit them and gain hp, and she eventually wiped out like 80% of my troops. Next go around I was able to cast weapons of sharpness on my mech men and managed to kill her quick enough before she did too much damage. I was under the assumption that mechanical units were not alive and wouldn't aid life drainers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I saw those battles. You're imagining things. What actually happened was that some of your regular Ulmish infantries got in the way and became snackfood, thus providing the HP boost needed to keep it alive just a bit longer. The times when the Ulmish infantry didn't get in the way, she didn't heal except by innate regen.

[vigabrand]

actually norfleet, my iron dragon got there long before my regular troops did, and she was gaining hp from it. By the time the reg troops got there, normal and mechanical she already had more hp than she started with.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Kel:

I mean, it certainly can work...and it's something you could do if the situation arose but having it as your start strategy and planning your research around it...well, I haven't tried it so let me know how it goes in play ?

- Kel

yeah i will tell you .
unfortunately this will be in 2-3 months when i try these strats in my new mp games .

this is one main reason why i put this thread up . you can't test against the ai . i am no fan of sandboxing so far too this takes long and is boring .

so i tried to develop some strats and i put them here on the Boards that hopefully experts like you who have long mp expierience tell me if it is worth trying or not .
i am now in 5 mp games since my now 2 months of owning dominions .
no one is even finished yet .
only in the newest one , started 4 days ago i am so far quite content with my pretender and have some plans .
but in the first 4 ones i just took pretenders from sp and had no clue about battle magic and the deeper concepts of sc design just sp expierience and relied there on mass summoning high end conjuration units and clamhoard and wish .

thats viable sp strategy and funny there but dominions 2 really shines in mp .
if i intend to do something like that in mp without serious plans for early - midgame and crappy pretenders i am dead on turn 10-30 , depending on my neighbors and so on .


if i test all the things out which i have in mind at the moment i would have to play 50 mp games which is simply impossible

so far i am really content with how the thread developed . got lots of valueable information thank you all