fire blessing lvl 9 : armorpiercing 8 ap fire weapons ? anti-vq strat discussing

[Boron]

Originally posted by Arryn:
"Quite safe" is not quite the way I think about it. 1.29 is the statistically average damage, not something I'd personally rely upon. Also, those 20 prot elite Ulms don't have a lot of HPs, so it won't take all that many average hits to kill them, especially since defense drops as units take damage and fatigue. Swarm (outnumber) those Ulms with fire-blessed troops and they'll die rather distressingly quickly.

Of course, those Ulms are going to be methodically chopping up your units during the battle, but that's why you'll be outnumbering them. Going one-on-one (or one-on-many) against high-prot Ulms is not advised unless you are using SCs or Jotuns. And attacking Ulms at less than 6:1 is not something I do with non-Jotuns if I can help it.

hm you are right . i had in mind especially following scenario : ulm vs marignon .

ulm can produce their black knights everywhere and marignon can only produce their knights of the chalice in the capitol .
so they are limited to 2-3 resourcewise / turn even lategame .

that way you should be able as ulm to get a 2:1 ratio black knights against knights of the chalice .

what i hadn't in mind is that the knights of the chalice are very superior to ulmish black knights .
the ulmish black knight has 24 protection so the avg. damage from a knight of the chalice hit is reduced to 0.754 hp .

but now comes the big fault in my model . i did only look at this aspect but it works the other way round too .
a knight of ulm has very inferior att/def Ratings to a blessed knight of the chalice .
so he hits rarely . because he has no ap damage the 20 protection of the knight of the chalice reduce ulms morning star attack to 1.67 avg damage too but fatigue left out 2 knights of ulm have following attack success odds : 1 knight 37.605% , 2 knight 45.773% .
the knight of the chalice has 93.822% hitting odd .

although in theory after turn 10-15 you should be able to field 2 knights of ulm against 1 knight of the chalice even then they have a not too easy time to defeat him.
taken into account that marignon will have x-bows with flaming arrows then and some wizards doing fire spells while ulm can only counter most likely with blade winds ( useless against knights of the chalice ) and their weaker arlabest-bows ulm has bad odds .

but in midgame once ulm reached weapons of sharpness the odds should change in favour to the mass produceable knights of ulm .

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
does weapons of sharpness make weapons magic too ?

No, it only makes them pierce armour.

do all weapons get ap what with uncommon weapons like claws or the stinger attack from a scorpion king and similiar ?

I'm pretty sure that it would make all weapons armour piercing.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:
oh is strength added to the extra 8 ap fire weapons attack ?
is it perhaps added for flaming arrow attack too ? this would be a bug then

No, no, and yes (it'd be a bug).

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ah thnx cool

so a protection of 20 makes you quite save against every fire bless unit

avg damage is 1.29 with prot 20 against fire bless attack according to saber cherry's dice odds

against broad sword attack : it does 18 dam but not ap .
prot 20 against that : also 1.29 avg damage .

so if you know your enemy has f9 blessing field 20+ protection units and you are quite save .

so especially nations like ulm should have no problems with f9 bless early game , and sc's , but everything else .

conclusion : if you face f9 blessing to be save early game you need prot 20+ units .
otherwise you need at least a 3 times bigger army i think and will get heavy casualities .

please confirm my conclusion or correct the flaws in it

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Boron:
so a protection of 20 makes you quite save against every fire bless unit

avg damage is 1.29 with prot 20 against fire bless attack according to saber cherry's dice odds

against broad sword attack : it does 18 dam but not ap .
prot 20 against that : also 1.29 avg damage .

so if you know your enemy has f9 blessing field 20+ protection units and you are quite save .

so especially nations like ulm should have no problems with f9 bless early game , and sc's , but everything else .

conclusion : if you face f9 blessing to be save early game you need prot 20+ units .
otherwise you need at least a 3 times bigger army i think and will get heavy casualities .

please confirm my conclusion or correct the flaws in it

"Quite safe" is not quite the way I think about it. 1.29 is the statistically average damage, not something I'd personally rely upon. Also, those 20 prot elite Ulms don't have a lot of HPs, so it won't take all that many average hits to kill them, especially since defense drops as units take damage and fatigue. Swarm (outnumber) those Ulms with fire-blessed troops and they'll die rather distressingly quickly.

Of course, those Ulms are going to be methodically chopping up your units during the battle, but that's why you'll be outnumbering them. Going one-on-one (or one-on-many) against high-prot Ulms is not advised unless you are using SCs or Jotuns. And attacking Ulms at less than 6:1 is not something I do with non-Jotuns if I can help it.

[Saxon]

Question to put into the mix. If the spell Mass Protection (or just Protection) is used, does it simply add to the defense rating? Does it then get ignored by armor piercing weapons? Or does it provide a bit of protection?

I am guessing it is a simple addition to the defense rating, but the combat model is pretty deep and I could be wrong. No matter what, this is a neat discussion and opens my eyes to more uses of armor piercing than I had considered before.

An earlier poster had asked about swarms of maenads with Weapons of Sharpness. Throw Mass Protection on that swarm and you have a truly frightening force! They hit hard, do not lose to many units and those losses are recovered quickly. Sure, there are lots of ways to stop them, but they are something your opponent will have to worry about.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Saxon:
Question to put into the mix. If the spell Mass Protection (or just Protection) is used, does it simply add to the defense rating? Does it then get ignored by armor piercing weapons? Or does it provide a bit of protection?

It provides "Barkskin" to all friendly units on the battlefield (page 85 of the manual). That means units get protection of 10 if they have less than protection 10, or they get +1 additional protection if they are already at protection of 10 or higher.

AP weapons would cut that protection of 10 (or more) in half. Remember, there are "armor-piercing" (halved protection) and "armor-negating" (zeroed protection) weapons. Do not confuse which is which.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Boron:
does weapons of sharpness make weapons magic too ?

No, it only makes them pierce armour.

do all weapons get ap what with uncommon weapons like claws or the stinger attack from a scorpion king and similiar ?

I'm pretty sure that it would make all weapons armour piercing.

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thnx for the answers .

first an addition to my vq theorie :
how do the spells mistform , air shield and mirror image help the surviveability of the vq against mass x-bows with flaming arrows ?

ok so new questions . i thought weapons get magic too by casting weapons of sharpness . as they don't i would need that otherwise etheralness is too evil

is there any spell , preferable either battle enchantment or large area effect which makes weapons of common troops magic ?
is there any other method than either fire bless or flaming arrows to make a weapon magic ?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
how do the spells mistform , air shield and mirror image help the surviveability of the vq against mass x-bows with flaming arrows ?

Mistform won't help, sinnce flaming arrows are magical. Mirror image will reduce the hits untl the VQ herself gets hit. Air shield will make 80% of missiles miss.

is there any spell , preferable either battle enchantment or large area effect which makes weapons of common troops magic ?

No.

is there any other method than either fire bless or flaming arrows to make a weapon magic ?

You have to equip a magical weapon on a commander, or use a national troop type that comes with a magical weapon.

[Boron]

found something new from you greame
i so far thought protection helps against missile attacks .
that you wrote in the manual addenda though :
6.3.2.1 Shield Protection from Missiles

Shield benefit against missile weapons: It's based on the shield's defense stat. It works like: 2d6oe > (2d6oe + shield defense) if I remember correctly

... and then ...

A unit's defense does not matter when being attacked by an arrow. The attack roll on the projectile is 10+2d6, while the victim's roll is 10+shield defense modifier+2d6. A tower shield for example has a defense modifier of 4.

... and then ...

Precision just determines which square the projectile will hit

[Graeme Dice]

that would be declare why from your expierience flaming arrows x-bows kill sc's pretty good while i put up so low avg. damage .
with protection expect from shield ignored that would declare it .
now i clutch on straws :
you wrote if i remember correctly .

so plz confirm that then i will make a new check which will agree with your expierience more .
and try to find countermeasures for that too .

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
found something new from you greame
i so far thought protection helps against missile attacks .

The protection from all sources is used against missiles. This includes that from shields.

A unit's defense does not matter when being attacked by an arrow. The attack roll on the projectile is 10+2d6, while the victim's roll is 10+shield defense modifier+2d6. A tower shield for example has a defense modifier of 4.

This is referring to the chance to actually hit the target when the missile lands in its square. The unit's defense from armour and combat ability don't matter, but the defense from shields does.