How much should a Random-5 Mage cost?

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Hate to distract from the discussion(I applaud the effort, incidentally. You're even more pedantic than I, and you've clearly put plenty of work into this), but I just have to know:

Heh. I'm not exactly sure how to take that 'pedantic' comment. As for a lot of work, I hardly think so; 6 hours of work to me is not 'a lot'.

Are these calculations for ExaltedMOD, or have you got some other MOD in mind, one with hedge mages in it?
I have a soft spot for hedge mages, I do. Masters of the miscellaneous and ineffectual.

Actually, this all came about exactly how the subject suggests: I started to wonder how much a Random-5 mage _should_ cost. When I started the Exalted mod, I didn't know that there were modding guidelines on Illwinter's site, and that gave me a way of being able to calculate it. The only problem at that point was figuring out the relative probabilities involved. That took me an hour or two this morning, and a call to my twin brother, who's had statistics courses more recently than I. Once I figured that problem out, I thought to myself: You know, 1 or 2 random picks would be a lot easier to figure out, and thus the project was born.

I find this all fascinating. An application of this will certainly be how to price the Solars. If by your mention of 'hedge mages', you meant a high number of random picks, I like them too.

I hope this might help to see more of them in the future.

[Vicious Love]

Only one way to take a comment about being pedantic: Slowly and methodically.
Either way, I think it's fairly obvious why Caelum's mages are underpriced: They're a magocracy. They rely on mages more so than on mammoths, raiding capabilities, sneaky cold-dominion pushing Seraphines, and pretty much any other individual merit they possess as a nation(Though not the sum of all of them).
The mix of air and water magic also makes Caelum's High Seraphs SPECTACULAR battlemages, particular for hit and run raids. Cast quickness and three rounds worth of Thunderstrike/Orb Lighting, retreat, repeat. Support with antimissile amulets, robes of shadows, and a staff of storms for best long-term results.
Now, if Ulm were to get underpriced mages, I'd be seriously concerned, but since Caelum is one of the top 3 magical superpowers in the game, it's only natural for them to be cost-efficient.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
[QB] Only one way to take a comment about being pedantic: Slowly and methodically.

*chuckles* Sure.

Either way, I think it's fairly obvious why Caelum's mages are underpriced: They're a magocracy. They rely on mages more so than on mammoths, raiding capabilities, sneaky cold-dominion pushing Seraphines, and pretty much any other individual merit they possess as a nation(Though not the sum of all of them).

While this may be so, I have my own opinions of Caelum's mages.

The mix of air and water magic also makes Caelum's High Seraphs SPECTACULAR battlemages, particular for hit and run raids. Cast quickness and three rounds worth of Thunderstrike/Orb Lighting, retreat, repeat. Support with antimissile amulets, robes of shadows, and a staff of storms for best long-term results.
Now, if Ulm were to get underpriced mages, I'd be seriously concerned, but since Caelum is one of the top 3 magical superpowers in the game, it's only natural for them to be cost-efficient.

Caelum is one of my favorite nations, so I'm rather familiar with how to use their strengths, I would think. I won't comment on the balance of the Caelumite mages, though; against the purpose of the thread.

Your Ulm comment is funny, however. The Master Smith's calculated cost is 140 points without the forge bonus.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
Erm... maybe I haven't explained myself clearly again. I am sorry.

Are you saying that it's only the _magic_ on the master of five elements that's worth 90? I thought you were talking about the actual cost of the unit being only 90 gold.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Are you saying that it's only the _magic_ on the master of five elements that's worth 90? I thought you were talking about the actual cost of the unit being only 90 gold.

Er, yes. The magic path cost of a hypothetical 1/1/1/1/1/1 Master of the Five Elements would be 90g. You would have to add to this the cost of being a commander, and the cost of being a Holy-2 priest.

I am sorry if I confused you.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
While the Alchemist is obvious an outlier, I think it is rather obvious why.

I'm not so sure it's so obvious. The closest indy mage is the Magus, same magic picks at 90 gp. To make up for the cost difference, you have to use the Alchemist to transmute 27 fire gems (or 42 earth), which looks like a hefty amount to me. Add 2 (or 3) more/turn to cover the extra upkeep. And 25 (or 40) more for the required lab. You've got to be gem-rich to take advantage of an Alchemist.

I have yet to understand why Caelum's mages are so cheap.

Just look a few Posts back, someone already replied to this. It's all about nation balance. And also for thematic reasons.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that IW did only come up with these guidelines when they introduced modding in Dominions 2. I can't get rid of the impression that they didn't use anything but 'flair' to get these mage costs out of their minds.

[Scott Hebert]

I'm not so sure it's so obvious. The closest indy mage is the Magus, same magic picks at 90 gp. To make up for the cost difference, you have to use the Alchemist to transmute 27 fire gems (or 42 earth), which looks like a hefty amount to me. Add 2 (or 3) more/turn to cover the extra upkeep. And 25 (or 40) more for the required lab. You've got to be gem-rich to take advantage of an Alchemist.

Is it worth its cost? I don't know. Is it worth more than 90g? Certainly. The Alchemist's ability is unique in the game, outside of one national pretender and one unique artifact. And it's not like you'd ever have more than one.

Just look a few Posts back, someone already replied to this. It's all about nation balance. And also for thematic reasons.

Well, since people seem to be making judgements, I'll level in on mine. The magocracy argument for Caelum, to me, means they should get cheap mages, or powerful mages, but not both.

When I compare to other 'magical powers' in the game, I still don't find much reason to believe Caelum's mages should be undercosted to the level that they are. Maybe I'm not comparing to the right nations...?

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that IW did only come up with these guidelines when they introduced modding in Dominions 2. I can't get rid of the impression that they didn't use anything but 'flair' to get these mage costs out of their minds.

Frankly, I _would_ be surprised. There's too much correlation. That'd be interesting... would anyone be interested to see the correlation coefficient of the data?

From this data, I would find it rather unbelievable that IW doesn't have guidelines, similar to (if not exactly) the guidelines they posted for mods, that they follow internally.

I'm going to start trying to analyze the information for threads that might be able to be condensed into other guidelines helpful to modders.

[NTJedi]

The circle master is one of the best deals in the game.

[Scott Hebert]

Yes, NTJedi. The Circle Master is. I'm glad people are able to use the numbers I came up with.