Pretender Balance Mod

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Zen:
I don't think anyone was saying not to Mod Scott.

I know that was not the intention, Zen. However, what is the use of a mod that no one uses?

I tried to put it as just a side-note that is what the thematic intention of Dominion is. You can mod whatever and however you like. IT is no secret that the actual choices of Pretenders vs the Pretenders chosen based on stats is disproportionately low. I just don't think modding the Dominion is suddenly going to change it, since low Dominion is something that Human Pretenders can cope with since they are not combat oriented.

Correct, they are not. Where else do you get the points, though? You can reduce the costs of the human pretenders to 0, which implies they are all equal (and they are not). That gets you about the same number of points as my suggestion, but at the loss of intra-Rainbow balance.

And regarding the 'greater need for bigger Pretenders for Dominion', I think this is an effect of the game, rather than a driving force. You mention that, rather than increasing Dominion, ways of increasing the survivability of the Human Pretenders should be found. Well, I took the easiest way of doing that I could. I raised their starting Dominion. This increases their stats and their HPs without actually changing their base stats (which would be against the feel of the game).

However, this isn't anywhere near the boost that the Giants get from Dominion. When you look at it that way, why is Dominion cheaper for those who benefit from it more? From a game balance standpoint, this doesn't make sense.

I feel that modding the game is perhaps the best way to show the designers how a proposed change would improve game balance. I don't generally like the alternative.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zen:
Because Vampires don't exactly exude influence as much as fear. They don't inspire worship, they demand it.

And yet you _want_ to worship a Prince of Death? This really isn't making sense to me.

---

To you, to me, to Zen, certainly not - but that's an ethnocentric judgment if I ever saw one. It certainly would make sense to, say, a Dusk Elder or a Sauromancer. Fantasy litterature, movies and RPG are full of alien cultures that worship exactly that kind of guy. Eg, Blizzard's Diablo series, to give just a prominent exemple.

*sigh* Yes, I know. Just funny how they seem to get everything. They're not of this world, so they're awe-inspiring, so they get high Dominion. They're also very elemental, so they get high magical paths. What _don't_ they get?

Cheap magic paths - ie, versatility. Human mages are more adaptable just for the reason they're less strongly attuned to a particular magic path. Makes a lot of sense to me, therefore I like it this way.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
To you, to me, to Zen, certainly not - but that's an ethnocentric judgment if I ever saw one. It certainly would make sense to, say, a Dusk Elder or a Sauromancer. Fantasy litterature, movies and RPG are full of alien cultures that worship exactly that kind of guy. Eg, Blizzard's Diablo series, to give just a prominent exemple.

But then, why doesn't the above argument work for the Vampire Queen? What makes the Prince of Death any better than the Vampire Queen to their subjects?

Cheap magic paths - ie, versatility. Human mages are more adaptable just for the reason they're less strongly attuned to a particular magic path. Makes a lot of sense to me, therefore I like it this way.

I'm sorry, but as I've tried to illustrate, I don't agree. You take a Rainbow, and you take a focussed mage, give them the same Dominion (even as low as 4), and it takes 3 Paths to make the Rainbow even come out even, and that's with vastly inferior stats. The reason I chose 4 is because that's the minimum I feel is necessary to grant reasonably quick and sure access to the powerful Rituals from the Path. Gift of Health, Forge of the Ancients, the Elemental Monarch Summons, and so on.

To me, if you're going to take a Pretender with a lot of 2s, the Pretender is going to be able to do a whole lot of nothing. You're going to have to rely on Empowerment or your National mages to cast any useful Rituals. About the only way to justify that kind of Pretender is to go the Coin/Skullcap/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry route, and that's extremely expensive in terms of Pearls, Pearls I think would be more effective casting Acashic Record and taking a more focused Pretender.

This is my big beef with Human Pretenders. They look like they should work for the generalist route, but they don't. Whether this is because of a lack of good Rituals to use at low path levels, an imbalance in cost of the Pretender, or relative ease in finding Independent Mages with 2-paths, I don't know. I'm just proposing an idea to make them more palatable on a quantitative level. It certainly makes them more viable, while not overshadowing the other Pretenders.

The only problem is one of theme.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
...
However, this isn't anywhere near the boost that the Giants get from Dominion. When you look at it that way, why is Dominion cheaper for those who benefit from it more? From a game balance standpoint, this doesn't make sense.
...

There are more points of comparison, though. For example, dragons benefit heavily from high dominion, but they start with only level 1. Titans have high dominion and benefit from it, but may be weaker than other combat pretenders with lower dominion, in other ways (e.g. Dragon is 50 points, but will tend to defeat 50-point giants in single combat unequipped, because they aren't as deadly and lack built-in armor.) The usual strength of the humans is their low cost for additional paths. Additional paths are useful for filling in national gaps and for broadening the possible spells and items (and magic-power-boosting items), as well as for site searching.

Many players do seem to think though that humans are a weaker choice than combat pretenders. I'm not clear how much of that is just the initial impressions of players who see the surface but not the potential of other choices. Having a combat monster may be easier to take advantage of, but it may be that when one does the right things with a rainbow, it ends up stronger in the end. I'm undecided, and my play style tends to favor middle-range compromises, including using human pretenders sometimes. The only time I tried to play all-out SC pretender, I was wiped out by the AI - no doubt partly because I was new to the play style.

I think you may be on to something though with the idea that humans should be less expensive, and that the cost is against the floor already. Dominion is one way to adjust that a bit, except that as others pointed out, they are the ones that don't need so high a dominion anyway, and it has thematic side-effects.

The costs and/or path costs of combat pretenders could be increased, but then that would weaken the strength of possible designs, so some players might not like that.

If it were possible (is it?) to mod negative costs to the human pretenders, that might be another approach. Humans would thus have even more points to play with.

You could also try modding spells so that some of the more popular spells required multiple paths in various combinations... but that would be a major change to gameplay.

PvK

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
And regarding the 'greater need for bigger Pretenders for Dominion', I think this is an effect of the game, rather than a driving force. You mention that, rather than increasing Dominion, ways of increasing the survivability of the Human Pretenders should be found. Well, I took the easiest way of doing that I could. I raised their starting Dominion. This increases their stats and their HPs without actually changing their base stats (which would be against the feel of the game).

Personally, I'm not sure that the human pretenders should be so terribly frail and weak. I suppose it's partly a result of the quantity and variety of fantasy that I've read, but....

In fantasy, you have the wizards who are ultra powerful, but easy to kill. Think Fritz Leiber, think AD&D (most popular paper/dice fantasy role playing game in north america (vice Runequest in Europe, Last I knew)). Generally though - those mages don't get mistaken for deities.

Then you have authors whose powerful mages seem to be on the verge of deification - almost impossible to kill, who have imbued themselves with near superhuman powers. Think Glen Cook's Black Company series - heads chopped off, the mages live, they had to be imprisoned in cairns for hundreds or thousands of years because they couldn't be killed.

That seems a lot more like a would be god than someone who is easier to kill than a sickly militia conscript, and who can only cast Air Shield as they begin their quest for Godhood. Would you worship a sickly crone with parlor tricks?

I really think the humanistic pretenders need some beefing up. Ethereality, Luck, at least a couple of half-way impressive starting spells to impress the natives, something.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
To you, to me, to Zen, certainly not - but that's an ethnocentric judgment if I ever saw one. It certainly would make sense to, say, a Dusk Elder or a Sauromancer. Fantasy litterature, movies and RPG are full of alien cultures that worship exactly that kind of guy. Eg, Blizzard's Diablo series, to give just a prominent exemple.

But then, why doesn't the above argument work for the Vampire Queen? What makes the Prince of Death any better than the Vampire Queen to their subjects?

---

Hmmm. In fantasy, Vampires are often depicted as secretive creatures, sometimes with a couple servants to wipe the webs that litter their coffins. OTOH, Demon Lords or Princes usually come with a huge retinue of all sorts of minions. Never noticed that?

quote:

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Cheap magic paths - ie, versatility. Human mages are more adaptable just for the reason they're less strongly attuned to a particular magic path. Makes a lot of sense to me, therefore I like it this way.

I'm sorry, but as I've tried to illustrate, I don't agree. You take a Rainbow, and you take a focussed mage, give them the same Dominion (even as low as 4), and it takes 3 Paths to make the Rainbow even come out even, and that's with vastly inferior stats.

---

Let me remind you it takes 7 colors to make a rainbow. As long as you aren't close to that number, your comparison is meaningless.

The reason I chose 4 is because that's the minimum I feel is necessary to grant reasonably quick and sure access to the powerful Rituals from the Path. Gift of Health, Forge of the Ancients, the Elemental Monarch Summons, and so on.

Fine. If that's your focus (assuming the 'and so on' doesn't cover every magic color), then obviously the rainbow mages aren't for you, and you're better with a more specialized pretender with 3 or 4 strong paths. But it's not due to an intrinsic limitation of the human mages, it's rather a self-imposed restriction due to your playstyle.

To me, if you're going to take a Pretender with a lot of 2s, the Pretender is going to be able to do a whole lot of nothing.

Hrm. FYI a pretender with only 2's can get 5+ in every path through items only. And I'm not talking artifacts here, that's doable at Construction 6.

You're going to have to rely on Empowerment or your National mages to cast any useful Rituals. About the only way to justify that kind of Pretender is to go the Coin/Skullcap/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry route, and that's extremely expensive in terms of Pearls, Pearls I think would be more effective casting Acashic Record and taking a more focused Pretender.

Oh wait, so Rings are expensive and Acashic isn't?

This is my big beef with Human Pretenders. They look like they should work for the generalist route, but they don't.

Whether this is because of a lack of good Rituals to use at low path levels, an imbalance in cost of the Pretender, or relative ease in finding Independent Mages with 2-paths, I don't know. I'm just proposing an idea to make them more palatable on a quantitative level. It certainly makes them more viable, while not overshadowing the other Pretenders.

The only problem is one of theme.

No, the only problem (and that's your problem, not anyone else's) is you want the human mages to compete with the Titans on their ground. Which, of course, is hopeless.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
And yet you _want_ to worship a Prince of Death? This really isn't making sense to me.

You're damn right I do. He wants to kill just about everyone and make the world into a land of death. I want to kill everyone. Becoming a demilich appeals to me, and makes for an excellent sign-up bonus. Where do I sign up?

Sure, YOU don't want to worship him, but that's why you get to be a Soulless after you die.

[ June 18, 2004, 04:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Scott Hebert]

Hmmm. In fantasy, Vampires are often depicted as secretive creatures, sometimes with a couple servants to wipe the webs that litter their coffins. OTOH, Demon Lords or Princes usually come with a huge retinue of all sorts of minions. Never noticed that?

I've noticed that those minions are normally mindbLasted into submission, which isn't really willing, IMO.

Let me remind you it takes 7 colors to make a rainbow. As long as you aren't close to that number, your comparison is meaningless.

According to Zen, 4 paths at 3 would be the closest thing to 'normal' Raibows you get, and 4 is just as close to 1 as it is to 7.

Fine. If that's your focus (assuming the 'and so on' doesn't cover every magic color), then obviously the rainbow mages aren't for you, and you're better with a more specialized pretender with 3 or 4 strong paths. But it's not due to an intrinsic limitation of the human mages, it's rather a self-imposed restriction due to your playstyle.

And the restriction is shared by many, it seems, since very few people seem to use human Pretenders.

Hrm. FYI a pretender with only 2's can get 5+ in every path through items only. And I'm not talking artifacts here, that's doable at Construction 6.

Well, if you start with 2 in every path... do Rings of Wizardry stack? I assume not, since very few magic items do. Then you'd have a Ring of Wizardry, a Ring of Sorcery, a Staff of Elemental Mastery... that's 4 in everything. You could use that Air/Blood robe, though I doubt many do. Circumstantially, you could have 5. But I guess I'm missing where you could have 5 in everything at Construction 6. Let me renew my familiarity with the MIQR and get back to you.

Oh wait, so Rings are expensive and Acashic isn't?

140 Pearls (the price of the quoted equipment) gets you almost 6 Acashics. Acashic, unlike the equipment, gives you an immediate and permanent gem income back. There's also the fact that the early Acashics make the later Acashics possibly cheaper, through the gem income.

No, the only problem (and that's your problem, not anyone else's) is you want the human mages to compete with the Titans on their ground. Which, of course, is hopeless.

If that's true, why aren't the human pretenders used more often?

It is true that I don't see the point of true Rainbows. If you use them for site-searching, they're very slow, and might not even find sites that your other mages can use. This means that the gems from those sites will either be saved so the Pretender can use them (once he stops searching), or they will be alchemized (at extreme cost) into a gem that can be used by other mages.

You're not going to have a Bless effect, the impact of which varies by nation.

Your superior Research over other Pretenders doesn't matter when it's most important, in the early game, because you're site-searching.

*shrugs* Where is the benefit over, say, a Great Mother with 4N/4E/3S, who can cast Gift of Health after Construction 4, can cast Acashic naturally, and Forge before spending over 100 gems that would have been halved under the Forge?

If you want to talk about site-searching, my Great Mother will find almost any site that I need to find early (before Acashic kicks in). Nature sites for Nature gem income, and a wide variety of possible effects (including Nature mages that I may not have nationally), Earth sites for Earth gems and money, and Astral sites for Astral gems (for Acashic).

I don't see the appeal of Rainbows under such conditions.

[Chris Byler]

Acashic Record, IMO, is only effective if you crank the site frequency way up (this both increases the success rate and number of sites found, and decreases the relative costs by giving everyone more gem income). 25 pearls to often find nothing? No thanks, I'll use the path-specific spells for a gem or two each, or send some mages to search the old fashioned way for no gems at all.

Granted, a lot of people *do* turn the site frequency way up, but I don't (at least in SP) - magic dominates the endgame enough already, increasing the site frequency only accelerates this.

You also neglect the awesome research power of rainbows. Titanoids can't match this, partly because of their new path cost and partly because of their chassis cost.

I think the introduction of the bless system did nerf the old "2 or 3 of everything" rainbow, for some nations. But others don't rely on their bless effect (base Ulm comes to mind - they could really use a strong researcher and good site searcher, too).

Also, you don't need the Elemental Staff/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry for high-path-requiring rituals; for rituals you only need to boost one path at a time (or occasionally two for something like Astral Corruption, King of Banefires, Father Illearth etc.) Make some individual path boosting items (which are much cheaper) and swap them around. Humanoids have plenty of item slots to play with (except the archmage on horse or freak, who is handicapped by his inability to wear boots of earth, so don't take him if you want earth). ES/RoS/RoW give research bonuses to a rainbow, and make him stronger on the battlefield, but they aren't really needed for rituals.

Rainbows aren't the best for path 5+ spells like elemental courts, globals, etc - although they can cast them the usually require items to do so. They really excel at research, site searching and forging (few items and even fewer magic sites require more than 3 in a path).

And finally, only some nations/themes really require strong dominion (principally Ermor and extreme temperature lovers). Yes, I know it's the name of the game, but dominion isn't the only way to win or defeat enemies. SC pretenders want dominion over their battlefields, but conventional armies can live without it. Most nations can spread dominion by preaching or building temples even if their god's dominion strength is low. Later in the game, especially on large maps, the dominion strength at initial purchase is less important because of the temple boost, more preaching and overall more sources of dominion. Nations with strong and/or cheap priests, inquisitors, cheap temples, or blood sacrifice (although this costs more than other methods) are particularly good at getting along with lower dominion strengths. I don't think buying every pretender's dominion up to 6 is a fair comparison - not all nations need that high a dominion.

[Blitz]

I had kind of given up figuring out how to balance humanoids with titans. But I had a few ideas, which might make them more appealing.

- Lower the cost of all humanoid pretenders to 0. The cost of raising dominion is already prohibitive. When you consider that making an 8-path rainbow Ghost King costs only 80 points more than a humanoid, you would have to be a complete moron to go with the humanoid. The Ghost King comes with the full Vampire Queen list of goodies (less immortality and regeneration), comes with a level of death magic, is obviously a first-class supercombatant, and can do anything a humanoid can do.

For example:

Ghost King - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 321 points
Frost Father - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 261 points

Even by using the humanoid in the manner most suited to the chassis, the difference is negligible. The GK's extra toys are indisputably worth 60 points. Any deviation from the basic rainbow template, be it higher dominion or fewer paths will only decrease the gap.

Now let's look at a "free" Frost Father...

Ghost King - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 321 points
Frost Father - level 2 in every path, no blood, dominion 4 - 206 points

Much more reasonable. The Frost Father is going to have lots of points left over for castles and scales. I would imagine humans would have a better idea how to rule an empire than a ghost anyways, so having excellent scales would be a fitting role for a human. Losing the SC power of a pretender god, but gaining a rainbow mage and very fortuitous scales might tempt some people to go the humanoid route.

Just make them all free, like the Oracle and Manticore and Nataraja mkay?