Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem

[Vynd]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime.

I don't claim to be a skilled multi-player. But I don't see why eliminating your opponent's dominion is something you "have to do anyway." Surely it is better to have a province with an enemy's dominion in it than to not have the province at all, right? Especially if the enemy's dominion is something relatively benign, like high order and productivity. You won't benefit from his nice stuff, but it only hurts you to the extent that it impinges on your own dominion's benefits. Of course it would be even better if it had your dominion, but if you keep taking over the enemy's territory, building the occasional temple and whatnot on the way, then surely his dominion will start to decline.

The problem comes in when the other guys dominion is actively unpleasant. That's when you have to work hard to reduce it and restrict it, as opposed to just taking over the territory and watching the dominion gradually switch as a matter of course.

Thus, it seems to me that the argument that you can deal with the immortality of the VQ simply by doing the things you would do against any opponent seems flawed to me. Combating the dominion of the VQ requires an extra effort, making it that much harder to research, build a strong army, etc.

[ May 03, 2004, 18:36: Message edited by: Vynd ]

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Originally posted by Cohen:
If you know you'll play another Nation, why not to do the pretender as weak as possible?

Because if everyone does it, then they get a junk pretender back. I guess what I was trying for was: Make something you wouldn't mind playing as OR playing against. If the optimal solution for Switcheroo is design a WEAK pretender, then remind players that you might get it thrown back in your face-- either courtesy of someone else who had the same idea, or your own concept boomeranging on you.

And perhaps you find yourself playing with a Nation you dislike, or you'ren't skilled in (especially for newbies) ...

Part of the risk.

I believe this is not realizable.

Also I haven't been around long enough to really get all that deep into things, but I see there's been quite a run of response in 12 hours, I'll have to wade through the rest and maybe modify the idea. If and when I get into an MP (is there a MP rookie league?) I want there to be a variety of designs out there, not variations on a (rather depressing) theme...
Oh and the closest I've come to anything involving clams is that when I picked that picture I'd had fish and chips for lunch that day.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Most of the players won't use mod in MP, cause none can assure these players does the mod to advantage them or however, which is their balancing skill.
...

The players have to use it on their end too. It's simple to see what exactly a mod does, especially a small one.

PvK

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by JaydedOne:
As has been mentioned in other threads, either the VQ needs a slight power-down (loss of flight or ethereal might be enough) or a good number of other pretenders need a slight power-up.

Loss of ethereal would be a pretty big nerf... though I'm not saying I'm opposed to it...

It would make her near useless in the early game (unless she takes Astral)... but probably no less powerful in the mid-to-late game. The reasoning behind that statement being: ethereal+luck+armor (and Enc 0) is basically unstopable against indie troops... but ethereal is meaningless when facing other player's SC's who presumably will be equiped with magic weapons.

While that does address my major issue with her... ie that she is "uber" throughout the game, while most SC Pretenders have to "retire" to the library at some point... I'm not sure about it.

If you did that, then all the VQ lovers would just switch to GK's and then we'd encounter an uprising to nerf them.

[Taqwus]

Ghost Kings, however, are not immortal; so a Ghost King SC can pay a fairly hefty price when slain in terms of both magic loss and temporary unavailability. Nor, if memory serves, do they natively fly. They shouldn't be recklessly risked on battles at potentially suicidal odds while expanding at the expense of the local independents.

[Teraswaerto]

In Dom vampires are immortal, ethereal, and can fly. Increased cost, decreased starting dominion, increased cost to get new paths. One or more of these would do the trick.

[Kel]

Ethereal is a con-4, 2S item. Personally, I don't think it really means much at all to remove that, given her other varied and copious defenses.

- Kel

[JaydedOne]

Originally posted by Kel:
Ethereal is a con-4, 2S item. Personally, I don't think it really means much at all to remove that, given her other varied and copious defenses.

- Kel

It means she doesn't get to wear Elemental Armor. That means a lot.

[Vynd]

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
In Dom vampires are immortal, ethereal, and can fly. Increased cost, decreased starting dominion, increased cost to get new paths. One or more of these would do the trick.

I think that 0 encumbrance is an important part of the VQ's arsenal, too. And Drain Life as her natural weapon doesn't help matters.

Of course besides all the stuff that makes the VQ a great SC, she also starts with 1 Death 2 Blood magic. And she gets free vampires from time to time. And she's stealthy, and... But I digress.

[Blitz]

I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

- Norfleet

Anyone else notice that the biggest defenders of the VQ are the ones that play her in almost every game? Yes, I'm aware that you probably know more ways to deal with this nuisance than most, having spent significant time playing her.

The point you are either missing, or ignoring because adressing it would change the way you "like to play" is this: Just because you can handle something does not mean it's not overpowered when taken in the context of the game. Your arguments sound a lot like someone who is arguing that longbows are not better than slingers by pointing out the weaknesses of longbows. The frailties of longbowmen do not change the fact that they are, in every respect superior to a slinger, so much so that no Man player will ever buy a slinger.

I do not want to personally attack you Norfleet, I'm rather new here and I don't try to start flamewars... but ask yourself this. Would you use the same VQ chassis if it cost 150 points instead of 110? I suspect the answer is yes. Would you still use her if she lost a misc slot? Probably. Idealy this game should be so well balanced that losing any of her attributes would make another unit superior, this clearly isn't the case with the VQ. Losing flying won't make the lich better. Losing immortality won't make her less useful than the ghost king.

That's the problem with your favorite chassis Norfleet. She's too cheap for what she does. Immortality, Earthrealness, Flying, Life drain, Cold resistance, poison resistance, fear, regeneration, stealth. Take ANY of that away and she's still a steal at 110 points... and that my friend is the problem, not the inability of players to kill her on turn 40.