Black Company Mod

[Teraswaerto]

I though only "Soulcatcher" would be immortal, or are all the heroes immortal? Anyway, how was the skill level of fire 8 determined? I haven't read the books in question, but in Dom having 3 in one path makes one a "master" of that path, and a King of Elemental Fire has 4, and that's as high as it gets except on a pretender.

The Jotun hero Angerboda has something like 3 astral, 3 death, 3 blood and 2 nature, so having 4/4 isn't that huge. The 3 unholy doesn't make much difference, since it isn't synergistic with anything. If the hero spends his/her time raising the dead all his/her other powers are wasted.

If they're all immortal it's a bit trickier, I admit.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I modeled my recruitable Taken off of Wraith Lords: immortal, undead, mage-generals. Stats as of now:

hp 30, st 15, enc 0, att 13, def 13, prec 13, mr 15, mor 15, fear 1, regen 10, gcost 300, fire/unholy 4/3, standard 20, immortal, undead. Expertleader, okmagicleader, goodundeadleader.

A big difference tween WL and Taken are Taken are not Ethereal, but have better armor (black steel full plate, helmet, shield). Taken have a mace, while WL have Bane Blades. WL have more hits. Taken have unholy 3--which is a big change, and one I am observing the effects of.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

You make a lot of good points, but I'll just address two of them.

The first is relying on luck for research. Yep. Good point. With luck you can get your research going, only 20 turns or so behind your neighbors. And it might be more than 20 turns, as this is a slow-out-of-the-gate nation....

The second point I'd like to address:

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see. [/QB]

Hard to refute! However, I'd still say that Niefel Jarls are far more powerful. Breakdown

NJ Taken Analysis
sz 5 2 no trample for T
hp 72 30 NJ can take more dg
pro 15 26 T have heavy armor
mor 15 15 tie
mr 18 15 NJ win self confidence
enc 4 0 T are undead
st 25 15 Big win to NJ
att 12 13 Slight edge to T
def 16 13 Makes up for the armor?
prec 12 13 Slight edge to T
mv 3/14 2/14 Strategic edge to NJ

NJ has quickness for X2 spells/attacks, huge ice cloud, an extra trample attack, fire 3, and is sacred (sacred increases cost by 50%).

T has minimum regen, is immortal, fire 4, and unholy 3. It has been argued that the unholy 3 is no help, and in the test games it hasn't. The T's armor may be too heavy; it certainly adds fatigue to their spell casting, providing a real boundary there.

I'd say that the NJ beats out the Taken overall, and that if it wasn't sacred it would cost about 375 gold and 40 res. The Taken's cost of 350 gold and 35 res seems in line--or slightly high.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

All the heroes are immortal, as are all the recruitable Taken. 4 heroes. The recruitable Taken are roughly equivalent to Wraith Lords. I may have to scale them down a bit, or make them more expensive, but I am watching that in my sample games.

I made some major additions Last night: Soulcatcher and her Soul Gatherer stealthy assassin minions. I haven't had a chance yet to try them out, but they could add a few layers of complexity to the mod.

Right now, you play and play and you hope and you hope for one of those heroes to pop up. Until at least one does, you are at a severe disadvantage compared to the other nations. Or at least that is how it appears to me so far. It could be that a different style of play would do better.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
I modeled my recruitable Taken off of Wraith Lords: immortal, undead, mage-generals. Stats as of now:

hp 30, st 15, enc 0, att 13, def 13, prec 13, mr 15, mor 15, fear 1, regen 10, gcost 300, fire/unholy 4/3, standard 20, immortal, undead. Expertleader, okmagicleader, goodundeadleader.

A big difference tween WL and Taken are Taken are not Ethereal, but have better armor (black steel full plate, helmet, shield). Taken have a mace, while WL have Bane Blades. WL have more hits. Taken have unholy 3--which is a big change, and one I am observing the effects of.

Another big difference would be the regen 10 on the Taken, and the fact that they only cost 300 gold as opposed to the 40 death gems [and one turn action from a good death leader] you need for Wraith Lords.

Niefel Jarls, the most individually powerful recruitable leaders at this time, cost 500 gold - and while they have twice the hitpoints of your Taken, they are neither immortal nor do they regenerate.

Double the cost to 600d, or set it to 666d as that seems appropriate to their level of strength

At a mere 300d, I could see myself buying almost exclusively Taken, equipping them with Dragon Helmet/Fire Scale to give them protection from fire, a reinvigoration item or two, and orders to bLast away. Hey, they have precision 13, which is unheard off in fire mages elsewhere, so why not use it to the fullest.

[ February 22, 2004, 13:15: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:

The first is relying on luck for research. Yep. Good point. With luck you can get your research going, only 20 turns or so behind your neighbors. And it might be more than 20 turns, as this is a slow-out-of-the-gate nation....

Or it might be 2 turns, if you have a good pretender capable of rapidly taking out a few independent provinces, or you might have a magic-heavy pretender able to research quickly to construction 2 for quills. I freely admit that relying on independent researchers is a risk, but in my experience you are almost always guaranteed to run across some sort of independents with magic skills, so it is an acceptable risk.

The second point I'd like to address:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see.

Hard to refute! However, I'd still say that Niefel Jarls are far more powerful. Breakdown

NJ Taken Analysis
sz 5 2 no trample for T
hp 72 30 NJ can take more dg
pro 15 26 T have heavy armor
mor 15 15 tie
mr 18 15 NJ win self confidence
enc 4 0 T are undead
st 25 15 Big win to NJ
att 12 13 Slight edge to T
def 16 13 Makes up for the armor?
prec 12 13 Slight edge to T
mv 3/14 2/14 Strategic edge to NJ

NJ has quickness for X2 spells/attacks, huge ice cloud, an extra trample attack, fire 3, and is sacred (sacred increases cost by 50%).

---

Decreases (which is your point), not increases, and the NJ cannot trample, but I am nitpicking here.

T has minimum regen, is immortal, fire 4, and unholy 3. It has been argued that the unholy 3 is no help, and in the test games it hasn't. The T's armor may be too heavy; it certainly adds fatigue to their spell casting, providing a real boundary there.

I'd say that the NJ beats out the Taken overall, and that if it wasn't sacred it would cost about 375 gold and 40 res. The Taken's cost of 350 gold and 35 res seems in line--or slightly high.

And I would still say that Fire 4 beats water 3/death 2 on the battlefield most days (well, except against fire resistant creatures). I tend to discount the strength on a NJ, as he is never intended to be in close combat, and the strategic movement of 3 is seldom useful except when flying. (At which time it is very useful, of course)

I don't think defense 16 vs 13 makes up for protection 15 vs 26 - but that is mainly because the greatest physical threat to NJ's are arrows and bolts rather than melee. On the other hand, the NJ's have shields, which help immensely against archery, and I don't know if your Taken have.

The sacred vs. non-sacred is a very good point. I thought your Taken were sacred as well, but apparently I am mistaken.

As for regeneration, you stated earlier that it was regen(10). In my experience, that is not minimal regeneration, but extremely useful regeneration, especially when a unit is already very hard to damage. With a protection of approximately 26 (modified by whatever equipment you choose to put on the Taken to reduce encumbrance while maintaining protection), it will take a lot of work to do even ten points of damage per round.

The sticking point to me remains the immortality. It is the thing that both wards your commanders against long-term afflictions, means that you are very likely to have them around for a long, long, time, no matter what the enemy throws against you (with correspondingly high survivability in the hall of fame), AND means that you can use a bunch of good commanders in suicidal defense actions, knowing they are ready to fight again next round.

As far as I remember, only one other recruitable unit has immortality (the Vanaheim Fay boar), and immortality, being one of the rarest modifiers, and one of the few that cannot be picked up elsewhere is priced accordingly: The Fay boar costs 120 gold.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Other expensive commanders in the near price range of 350 gold for comparison purposes:

NON-SACRED: Machacka Black Sorceror (250), Jotun Skratti and Gygja (250), Abysian Warlock (260), R'lyeh Starspawn (280), Atlantian King of the Deep (290), Pangaean Pandaemoniac (320) and Pan (350)

SACRED: Vanaheim Vanadrott (380), Pythium Arch Theurh (380), Man Tuatha Lord (390), Michtlan High Priest of the Sun (390), Vanaheim Hangadrott (400), Abysian Anathamant Dragon (400), Niefel Jarl (500)

[ February 23, 2004, 09:05: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[E. Albright]

I for one feel that all of this frivolous discussion regarding play balance for the Taken has led us away from far more troubling shortcomings in this mod.

Such as the absence of Toadkiller Dog.

[Bossemanden]

Originally posted by E. Albright:
I for one feel that all of this frivolous discussion regarding play balance for the Taken has led us away from far more troubling shortcomings in this mod.

Such as the absence of Toadkiller Dog.

Nah the biggest play-balance issue is that the mod has as far as I can see not been made publicly accessible yet. All other considerations are minor in this respect and should be relegated to a later Version.

Edit: In other words: When will we see it?

[ February 23, 2004, 18:37: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

[moodgiesanta]

I have absolutely no idea what the Black Company is, but this still sounds very interesting.