Please don't take my toys away!

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Zen:
Hrm. Keir, what did you ask about T'ien Ch'i? I must have missed it. Was it regarding the S&A and BK as well as summons type of thread?

. . .

And I do apologize about our misunderstanding - though you shouldn't be grumpy

I know - apologies to both you and Jasper.

I asked what the prot of Tien Chi HC was and wether you could find orders to get them to utilize both lance and bow. I was waiting for the game to arrive and dreaming of HC hordes. Like I say its no big deal but as Jasper says the lack of responses is in itself a response. I'm just feeling a bit sad that what I'm interested in - all the new race possibilities and how to play - seems secondary to largely pointless (IMO) debates on the grand balence. But hey thats just the way the cookie crumbles and so I haven't written up any races for awhile.

I was looking at putting together a compendium of
radical race designs but have given the idea away for now. Its alot of work getting the races designs written up and tested and the response has been fairly patchy - mainly silence or vague scepticism from vets and some interest from newer players. I believe race design possibilities have opened up to such a degree that race design is a different thing in Dom II and I have put this thesis forward with little response. Meanwhile other vets argue about game balence and think thats what is interesting. Its a funny world.

Cheers

Keir

[Rainbow]

Keir wrote:
>Order3/misfortune3 is the engine that provides the necesary gold and design points.

Eh, whut? That would be –120 design points for order and +120 design points for misfortune, resulting in a big fat zero. I have to assume that these “provided” design points you refer to are the ones from misfortune, which you think of as free points, since you have max. order, and are thus somewhat protected from too many bad events.

Anyway, to get to the heart of the matter, you are both right, and you both have the exact same concern, but you are not listening to each other. Keir is saying that there is a game balance issue because a lot of things are not viable options IF the order/tumoil and fortune/misfortune scales were not as they are. Zen is saying there is a game balance issue because these scales are so strongly biased towards one configuration that it leaves no viable alternative configurations of the scales themselves.

So you both want game balance and to be able to play in a game rich in diversity, with unlimited viable combinations of choices. You just have different perspectives on how to approach the matter.

That said, I have to add that Zen has nailed the real problem. If there is only one viable choice between the scale settings, then the scales are imbalanced (pun not intended).

If there is a design point problem that makes some play styles unviable, then that is a separate issue.

When I learned that there were pretender bless effects based on starting magic paths I was thrilled. The possibilities! But I think that these bless effect are meant to be flavour, or a feature, another option, rather than something to build an entire dominion on. I would love to discuss how to make the most of bless effects as they are however.

/Rainbow

[ November 24, 2003, 12:07: Message edited by: Rainbow ]

[MStavros]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MStavros:
Dude....your constant whining makes me sick, but seriously. You don't like lot of things, because of your beloved MP screwed in your opinion.

Dude you obviously haven't followed my Posts since I'm arguing in favour of keeping things as they are. The original much misunderstood post was supposed to be funny - so "dude" chill out. I was saying "hey guys don't argue for too much change or we will lose the really interesting balence they have created." Seeing as you seem to agree with me why are you accusing me of constant whining?

So dude if you want to be a smart arse try reading, then digest, then shoot - or you might hit your foot.

Sort of ironic that I am being castigated by those who seem to agree with me - the moral of the story is don't try subtle humour on the net or somebody will throw mud in your face. Bleergh.

---

1. I don't agree with you.
2. I think that the balance of the game is ok.
3. You should chill out.

Nothing personal, but as I said, maybe you should wait for the mod tools, and balance this with that, as you want.

[Prio]

> 1. I don't agree with you.
> 2. I think that the balance of the game is ok.

HE THINKS THE BALANCE OF THE GAME IS OKAY. THEREFORE HE AGREES WITH YOU. THAT'S WHAT HE JUST GOT FINISHED *SAYING*.

...

...Stravos, you know, you make reading this board very frustrating. And very infuriating. Because you waste people's time. You waste people's time a lot. And that is very very frustrating. And that's all I'm going to say. :\

Kier, here are the mobile units and the one sacred for the T'ien Ch'i (Base).


Red Guard
G 70 R 42
HP 10 S 10
Pro 15 At 12
Mo 15 De 14
Mr 12 Pre 10
En 5 Mv 2/20

Sacred
Lance, Falchion, Hoof
Full Scale Mail, Helmet, Round Shield

Imperial Horsemen
G 45 R 30
HP 10 S 10
Pro 15 At 11
Mo 12 De 13
Mr 10 Pre 18
En 5 Mv 2/22

Lance, Falchion, Hoof
Full Scale Mail, Helmet, Round Shield

Heavy Horsemen
G 25 R 28
HP 10 S 10
Pro 14 At 11
Mo 10 De 8
Mr 12 Pre 10
En 5 Mv 3/23

Lance, Spear, Composite Bow
Full Scale Mail, Helmet, Buckler

Horsemen
G 20 R 9
HP 10 S 10
Pro 7 At 10
Mo 10 De 12
Mr 10 Pre 8
En 4 Mv 3/24

Spear, Composite Bow
Full Leather Armor, Helmet

In my experiance the only order that works for a missile using cavalry are no orders or Fire If you place your Horsemen at the front end of the line, and have them Fire on a specific type of unit they will be eventually engaged as enemies come within close enough combat to them.

There is no way I have found for them to be put on a flank and advance while Firing into an area. If you put them where they are not targeted for melee by an opponent; they will not engage unless something gets close enough.

Edit: Yes I do like answering questions for someone who already has the full game and knows. Yes I am crazy! Also changed Heavy Horseman.

[ November 25, 2003, 03:39: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
Heavy Horsemen
G 25 R 28
HP 14 S 10
Pr 11 At 11
Mo 10 De 8
Mr 12 Pr 10
En 5 Mv 3/23

Lance, Spear, Composite Bow
Full Scale Mail, Helmet, Buckler

You sure about that? All other cavalry listed have 10 HP; 14 sounds unlikely.

But it sounds like Tien Chi has awesome cavalry! Normally I refuse to use cavs because they're too pricey, but I'd make an exception here=)

However, there's still the problem that you can't effectively order your cavs to use both their ranged and melee weapons... I hope that gets resolved! "Charge and fire while approaching" or "Fire while the enemy is approaching, then charge when you see the whites of their eyes" would be nice.

P.S. You're listing Precision and Protection as "Pr" rather than PRO and PRE or PT and PC, so it gets a tad confusing=) But if the elites have only 15 protection rather than 19 like 45gp indy knights, I'd prefer the indy knights. Unless the TC elites really do have 18 precision, in which case I'd Gift of Reason them and give them a magic bow=)

[ November 24, 2003, 19:09: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Yes I changed it. Was distracted. Sorry about that, it has been changed. It has Prot 14, 10 HP.

Yes they do have awsome cavalry; they just can't use it very well.

The Horse Archers make very good decoys, as they have the tag "Cavalry", "Archer" and if you place them in back "Rearmost" so you can abuse the Tactical AI by sporatically placing 1 horseman in a place you want certain enemies to attack and abuse it in that manner. That is the only real benefit outside of having the equivilant of armor, mobile archers.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by MStavros:
Dude....your constant whining makes me sick, but seriously. You don't like lot of things, because of your beloved MP screwed in your opinion.

What about waiting for the mod tools, and make your OWN MP mod.
If your friends will like your mod, they will play with you.

Once again Stavros, you miss the point (other than Keir agreeing with you on the overall balance) - "doing your own mod" won't take you anywhere if, like Keir I believe, your main interest is in MP.

Unless there's a very wide agreement on the superiority of Mod X over the "vanilla" game, 99.9% of MP games will use the standard, Illwinter-designed, Shrapnel-released game, with all (not totally buggy) patches. What Keir argues here is for the devs not to listen too much to the hordes of people who complain about the lack of viable (competitive) options concerning the order/turmoil and luck/misfortune scales. I won't give my opinion, as I clearly lack the experience, but I don't see how you can understand this as whining about the balance.

{Edit: changed the display}

[ November 24, 2003, 20:45: Message edited by: PhilD ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:

I'm just feeling a bit sad that what I'm interested in - all the new race possibilities and how to play - seems secondary to largely pointless (IMO) debates on the grand balence. But hey thats just the way the cookie crumbles and so I haven't written up any races for awhile.

I think your timing is just bad. I'm interested in race possibilities too, but am still exploring what's different about Dom 2 more generally. It's easier for me to decide on race design once I get a feel for what things are effective.

[ November 24, 2003, 22:46: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zen:
There is no way I have found for them to be put on a flank and advance while Firing into an area. If you put them where they are not targeted for melee by an opponent; they will not engage unless something gets close enough.

Hmmmm. Perhaps Units with missile weapons that are given orders to attack, should also fire their weapons on the way? This would make bow armed cavalry more usefull, and then you could more intuitively give javelin armed troops attack rather than fire orders. Similarily for troops with guard orders, as has been brought up often before.