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[MadFrancis]

Originally Posted by Executor

HA LIAR!
I just found the turn where you agreed to a NAP. Turn 40 message sent to you, turn 42 answer arrived where you agreed to a NAP.

What do you have to say about that?

in game? hmm ... weird. well I cant keep track of things that are only in game especially as that was one of the first turns I played I believe as Agartha and was getting messsages from all sorts of people (most of them were actually reasonable human beings and did it over the forums though). A begginner's mistake I guess. I'll not be making that mistake again. I'll stop attacking you for three turns.

My apologies.

By the way, how do you recall that info, it might come in handy when trying to keep this stuff straight, oh never mind. I just won't deal with in game messages other than to tell people if they have something to say, do it over the forums or through emails so a person can reasonably be expected to keep track of these things.

And maybe if you want these things to be actually remembered and honored you should take the time to do so yourself. And maybe you should not lose your **** over something like this. I mean calling me a liar because I don't remember two ingame messages that happened nearly twenty turns ago. Sheesh.

[Executor]

You should keep track of your treaty's with other players.

I looked which turn you took over Agartha and went trough my mail for earlier turns since I knew we had a NAP.

What's done is done, I've proven my self correct and I am not asking for cease of hostilities. I never had a problem with anyone attacking me but I did with NAP breaking, that was my only point, so continue the war, no breaks.

[MadFrancis]

Originally Posted by Executor

You should keep track of your treaty's with other players.

If you want that you should make treaties you want remembered through means with which players can keep track of these things. I'm pretty sure Dom3 doesn't have an in-game treaty tracker, which is why everyone else used other methods.

If you rely on unreliable methods, expect unreliable results. I admit that I have a memory that will lose tracks of such things after a couple of months, but I certainly am no breaker of formal agreements or a liar.

You may be "correct", but certainly you are not justified.

[Executor]

I don't usually use the in game messages, only sometimes in the begining when I don't expect much diplomacy, but that doesn't mean that it would be disregarded.
Even so, if you get a PM about a treaty that isn't much different from the in game system, just faster. You'll lose track there in a few month also, there is a limit of 300 messages max.
It makes little difference how a treaty is made, the important thing is that there is one.

I tend to write down my treaty's from various games so this doesn't happen, I suggest the same.

[MadFrancis]

Originally Posted by Executor

I don't usually use the in game messages, only sometimes in the beginning when I don't expect much diplomacy, but that doesn't mean that it would be disregarded.
Even so, if you get a PM about a treaty that isn't much different from the in game system, just faster. You'll lose track there in a few month also, there is a limit of 300 messages max.
It makes little difference how a treaty is made, the important thing is that there is one.

I tend to write down my treaty's from various games so this doesn't happen, I suggest the same.

I fail to see how writing it down would make it any more reliable than an email or a PM, and really the issue is an aside.

My main point is:

Before you fly off the handle accusing people personally of being liars and cheats you should calm down first and maybe just send a message saying,
"Hey, we only ever talked about this in-game so maybe you forgot, but we had a NAP and I see you have attacked me."
My response would have been just as reasonable, at which point things could have been handled much more amiably.

Simple as that.

Also, a handy tip.
You can download your message files as an html file or such for archival pruposes. A simpler standard, I think, than writing down all in game messages on paper (which weren't diregarded by the way, just forgotten and missed in the shuffle with no way to refer back).

[Executor]

You're missing my point,
I ment it as a way to keep track who you have a treaty with, so my scenario doesn't happen again, not for the sake of other people but for you. If someone wants to disregard a NAP he'll do it be it signed by a PM, Email or In game message, it makes no difference.

My first reaction was a post saying that you broke the NAP which you said you'd uphold. It met no answer, so I continued as nothing had happened, but the matter reopened when I was backstabbed once again and than you claimed we never even had a NAP. Now that one did make me "fly off the handle"

[MadFrancis]

Try a PM next time, your much more likely to get a response. Public accusations and denouncements are hardly amiable first responses to a problem. Rather than assuming everyone is a liar and an honor-less dog, maybe a quick PM to see if it was a mistake and allow people to do the right thing. If you do not give me a chance to behave decently how can I ever prove to you that I would? Again I'm sorry for the mistake, but next time try and refrain from public denouncements of my character until you have at least messaged me first ...

[Executor]

You had plenty time to explain you self when I stated that you broken your NAP, but you chose not to.

"Rather than assuming everyone is a liar and an honor-less dog"

Not everyone, just those who really are honorless and will not state that there is even a remote chance that they could be wrong.

I did get a responce from Sauromatia, can't say he's right, but I did get an answer at least.

And if you do not trust in game system that much why do you use it yourself?

EDIT: by the way your action at that point clearly showed that you broke the NAP on purpose, it turned not to be so, but if someone did the same thing against you what would you think?

[MadFrancis]

Originally Posted by Executor

You had plenty time to explain you self when I stated that you broken your NAP, but you chose not to.

I did not "choose" to be unresponsive, I simply never read (or posted in, for that matter) the "Beer" thread until today. I have stated in another thread that as a full-time student and employee I don't have time to read threads. I check everyday for emails and PMs, that's it usually. Unfortunately I cannot devout my life and all my time to this game, otherwise I assure you I would have responded to these uncalled for libelous attacks. The only reason I have responded so much today is because I am on winter break, which started this week. So I did not "hear" of any of these accusations until today, at which point I responded.

Originally Posted by Executor

"Rather than assuming everyone is a liar and an honor-less dog" Not everyone, just those who really are honorless and will not state that there is even a remote chance that they could be wrong. I did get a responce from Sauromatia, can't say he's right, but I did get an answer at least.

And mistakes make people honorless? That's pretty ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Executor

And if you do not trust in game system that much why do you use it yourself?

EDIT: by the way your action at that point clearly showed that you broke the NAP on purpose, it turned not to be so, but if someone did the same thing against you what would you think?

I generally don't, after I got confused from too many messages in game I started replying to people over the forums because I was having trouble keeping track of what agreements the previous player had made with his neighbors and where I stood coming as a sub. Like I said, I never heard anything from you out of game so your messages were forgotten, a mistake, but an honerst one. Anyone who messaged me over the forums was not forgotten and has been treated fairly and honestly.

If someone did that to me I would do exactly as I suggested anyone do. Give people a chance to actually behave well instead of just assuming they are not. Maybe I am an idealist, but at least I don't make an *** of myself by whining and moaning and calling people names puiblicly without being certain that I am justified to do so.

I apologized for the mistake, proven that it was honest and understandable and offered to make ammends, and yet I still haven't heard you apologize for your public abuse. At this point you have proven yourself unreasonable and I wont be dealing with you any longer since it will obviously be a waste of time.

One last piece of advice before I am done though. This is JUST a game in the end. Try and keep that in mind the next time you feel like abusing real people over it.

[Executor]

"And mistakes make people honorless? That's pretty ridiculous."

Mistakes don't make people honorless

But, What you are constantly failing to realise is that your attack didn't seem like a mistake at that moment. You said you'd honer the NAP and then you attacked, that doesn't seem like a mistake to me.

"but at least I don't make an *** of myself by whining and moaning and calling people names puiblicly without being certain that I am justified to do so."

First of all I'm not either moaning or calling anyone names, if I was believe me you'd know, I had already let the matter with you go away as it happened over half a month ago (there was only one single post calling you an oathbreaker and a bounty on your capital, which I consider is by no means offensive to ANYONE).
My post wasn't directed to you but to WingedDog who did break the NAP on purpose as he explained. NOTHING POSTED RECENTLY was directed to you. You were the one that started this row and getting at me as if I was Hitler or something so I really don't know what your problem is?

I explained myslef and Slobby seemed to understand what I was saying about being jumped on and backstabbed, but than you jumped in with statements that I'm spinning something and that I'm the real oathbreaker and that "Those who know the truth will merely chuckle as the seeds one sows come back to haunt the sower" what ever the hell that means??? And that I'm raving and crying over the NAP that you said on several occasion we never HAD, which I proven you incorrect.

So maybe you should reconsider what you've been directing at me and calm down youself a little.

"and yet I still haven't heard you apologize for your public abuse. At this point you have proven yourself unreasonable and I wont be dealing with you any longer since it will obviously be a waste of time."

Public abuse? Towards who?? Slobby, Karnoza, WingedDog???
Maybe I do come out a little unreasonable but I'm certainly not the only one.

This was never supposed to became personal, I stated that you're (plural as in more than 1 player) using low tactics and you made it look personal.

If I offended someone, which I'm certain I dind't, I apologize to them but not to you as maybe I'm wrong but the is no chance that you are correct.