Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
It cannot be stopped without having a castle in every province.

This is when you take your armies ans smash down his undefended watchtowers.

[The Panther]

Graeme Dice said:
This is when you take your armies ans smash down his undefended watchtowers.

Of course you can always strike back. But the fliers can strike three deep into enemy territory and the stronger land army can strike only one deep back.

I was getting 5-10 provinces and losing 0-8 each turn for like 15 turns against three opponents. I was also taxing many of those at 200% for multiple turns and using the money to get even more Seraphs and plenty more cheap archers to keep reloading. Everything I lost was easily replaced and then some. Everything my opponents lost was gone for good.

It was surprisingly easy to overrun my opponents with about 10-20 separate armies composed of one Seraph spamming false horrors plus 5 archers. I lost many of those sacrificial strike forces, but it simply made no difference in the long run.

And EVERY SINGLE TIME any one of my three opponents seiged one of my towers, I simply hit him back with a real army composed of my flying pretender, AQs as needed, draconians, hawks, and up to about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers from many strike forces, which I could fly in from every conceivable direction over amazingly far distances. I never once lost any of my own towers. Even better, it was typically easy to cut off the retreat path with my annoying fliers and poof any enemy who might have survived the battle.

Strategic flying is definitely overpowered. I have been on the receiving end of this strategy more than once and the dishing end but this one time. It is far more pleasant to be doing it than having it done to you.

[Cohen]

I'd completely agree with Panther.

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
And EVERY SINGLE TIME any one of my three opponents seiged one of my towers, I simply hit him back with a real army composed of my flying pretender, AQs as needed, draconians, hawks, and up to about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers from many strike forces, which I could fly in from every conceivable direction over amazingly far distances. I never once lost any of my own towers.

You must not have been facing a very competent opponent then, since there are plenty of spells he could have used to destroy all of your seraphs and normal troops, thus leaving only your tougher troops to deal with. It's very easy to make units that Seraphs can't hurt, and that can also deal quite well with air queens and the like.

Strategic flying is definitely overpowered.

I've yet to see any kind of convincing argument for this.

[alexti]

The Panther said:
And EVERY SINGLE TIME any one of my three opponents seiged one of my towers, I simply hit him back with a real army composed of my flying pretender, AQs as needed, draconians, hawks, and up to about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers from many strike forces, which I could fly in from every conceivable direction over amazingly far distances.

You're expected to lose all your seraphs and archers to a competent player in such a battle though...

[Tuidjy]

Cohen said:I'd completely agree with Panther.

Amazingly enough, that does not make Panther completely wrong.

It's phases like 'fastest researching nation', 'draconians, hawks, and up to
about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers', 'supreme advantage' that do. Whom
was he plaing against? Someone with neither a clue, a long term plan, nor
even superficial knowledge of Caelum's tricks.

One thing's for sure. I have never had a problem with fighting Caelum when I
have played Pythium, Vanheim or C'tis. I hate Jotunheim, but I think that they
would also easily deal with Caelum. Yes, Caelum is among the top nations,
especially if diplomacy is forbidden, but I stopped played them when I
realized how limited they are in the late game. The one time I have fought
a strong Caelum nation with Vanheim, I was winning only one battle in three,
but six turns after the war started, he did not have a castle that could
produce anything... and he had not killed a single mage of mine. Afterward,
a few cold immune Vanadrotts trapezed on top of his province-taking squads,
and he went AI.

Do not get me wrong. On a small map, or with clear teams, I would like to play
Caelum. But on a decent sized map with ten players, I would pick a race with
no glaring weaknesses, and that excludes Caelum.

[The Panther]

alexti said:
You're expected to lose all your seraphs and archers to a competent player in such a battle though...

I fail to see how a competent Caelum player will lose any seraphs. 40 false horrors on the second move, then 80 on the third. Too much fear for anything but perhaps undead. Even enemy fliers can only kill a few of the archers who are close by.

In particular, Ulm had no chance. His smiths always targeted his own troops once the horrors appeared. His best strategy was scripting fire shield on his commanders where he could.

Jontunheim did quite a bit better, simply due to the sheer Lasting power of the infantry plus bane lords. Surprisingly enough, the seraphs frequently switched to frozen heart against the bane lords and Jontun infantry once the script ran out, which was very good.

Arco was a rookie in his second MP game, that much was true. He could have beat me with the astral mind spells which ignore the horrors. But he had too many priests and not enough astrologers.

Still, at most, I can see losing some archers in a big battle. Certainly not 20 seraphs. Especially since Caelum can get false horrors so very quick if they want. Most specific counters take a lot longer to research than Caelum going straight to Alt 6. Also, the seraphs are so incredibly cheap for their power that Caelum will always have more fighting mages than any other race.

I will agree that Caelum becomes somewhat limited late game, but I have not played past about turn 70 in any MP game as yet.

[alexti]

Tuidjy said:
One thing's for sure. I have never had a problem with fighting Caelum when I
have played Pythium, Vanheim or C'tis. I hate Jotunheim, but I think that they
would also easily deal with Caelum.

Not sure, I've played Caelum vs Jotunheim and Jotunheim vs Caelum and every time it was Caelum's advantage. I think there're few contributing factors. Jotunheim's usually decent PD is nearly useless vs Caelum. Those giants have well-developed self-preservation instincts, so they quickly retreat when face false horrors - who knows, one of those horrors may roll triple-6 and hurt somebody. Jotuns don't have cheap mages capable to deal with Caelum's raiders either (except, maybe Utgard). Lighting is bad news for Jotuns, because even when it doesn't kill their giants it cripples them. (For other nations, life expectancy of the troops is not that high and they're easier to replace). Jotuns can't counter Caelum's dominion push either. Despite all said, it's not hopeless to fight Caelum playing Jotunheim, but some other nations could be better. For example, Pangaea. Or Ermor. Or Atlantis.

Tuidjy said:
Yes, Caelum is among the top nations,
especially if diplomacy is forbidden, but I stopped played them when I
realized how limited they are in the late game. The one time I have fought
a strong Caelum nation with Vanheim, I was winning only one battle in three,
but six turns after the war started, he did not have a castle that could
produce anything... and he had not killed a single mage of mine. Afterward,
a few cold immune Vanadrotts trapezed on top of his province-taking squads,
and he went AI.

Do not get me wrong. On a small map, or with clear teams, I would like to play
Caelum. But on a decent sized map with ten players, I would pick a race with
no glaring weaknesses, and that excludes Caelum.

Strength of Caelum in the late game significantly depends on initial planning, with the right plan and pretender Caelum can be pretty good in the late game. But the same probably apply to the most nations. And it comes at the price of somewhat less efficient mid-game.

[Cainehill]

Just to chime in - on the one paw, I'm not sure Caelum is all that overpowered. But on the other, I'm not sure that it's all that limited in the late game, given a well designed pretender. I suspect it's a top-5 nation if not top 3.

False Horror : Overrated, imo - Seraphs using lightning bolt and/or frozen heart are about as effective.

Wrathful Skies - in my first two Caelum games, I haven't used it a single time. Both games I've one of the top two nations, without _ever_ using WS, and both games are post turn-50 now. I even had my pretender killed fairly early in one by a blitch (a B of a glitch ) which he is still crippled from, and in that game, turn 70ish, I haven't even found any good sites - enchantresses are the only recruitable non-nation mages I have. ( Spectres, Lamia Queens, etc, compensate quite well and don't require any luck in finding sites. )

If I hadn't used my somewhat limited charm and tact to manage some diplomacy, I wouldn't be a prime challenger in either game, despite the "huge" benefit of Caelum, and the decent benefit of being a strong intermediate player.

So - given that the game is meant primarily for MP, if all nations are supposed to be 100% equal, Caelum might get tweaked down. Then again, stronger players might let ... newer players have the nations like Caelum, Pythium, Arco, Atlantis and R'lyeh; maybe the Jotuns too and Vanheim. This lets the fresh blood experiment with the mightier nations, and allows the old dogs to prove that nation doesn't count for all that much by crushing them with Ulm and T'ien C'hi.

Something that might be nice, though, would be a game setting tweak that could be used to give a bonus / hindrance to a particular player. Say I get a 10% penalty to research and upkeep, while Cohen gets 20% extra gold, gems and research. Something like that might make mixed games with newbies and pros more interesting.

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
I fail to see how a competent Caelum player will lose any seraphs.

Rain of stones for Arco and Vanheim. Raise skeletons for C'tis. Howl for Man and Pangaea. Machaka can use all three of these at once. Growing fury if you really are short on mages and need to keep your troops from routing. Acid rain for T'ien C'Hi and Atlantis. Vanadrott's and the like for Vanheim or Tuatha. Devils, devils and more devils for Abysia or Mictlan. Add in fireshielded lightning immune Archdevils and falling fires to clear away false horrows. Astral tempset for anyone with golems.

Too much fear for anything but perhaps undead.

Or vine ogres or mechanical men or living statues.

Even enemy fliers can only kill a few of the archers who are close by.

You didn't bring storms? Devils will kill your archers on the first turns, then quickly move on your seraphs and other troops. They won't rout either.

In particular, Ulm had no chance. His smiths always targeted his own troops once the horrors appeared. His best strategy was scripting fire shield on his commanders where he could.

Ulm versus the air nations is always uneven. This isn't a particularly good comparison point.

Surprisingly enough, the seraphs frequently switched to frozen heart against the bane lords and Jontun infantry once the script ran out, which was very good.

No, they certainly didn't switch to frozen heart, since bane lords and Jotuns are both immune to cold.

Arco was a rookie in his second MP game, that much was true. He could have beat me with the astral mind spells which ignore the horrors. But he had too many priests and not enough astrologers.

He brought priests to a battle with Caelum. That tells you that the Arco player didn't really have a good grasp of how to defeat Caelum. He'd have been better off throwing around the elemental battlefield magic that arco is good at.

Certainly not 20 seraphs.

How are you planning to defend them against a spell like rain of stones, which is especially devastating against physically weak mages? Or howl, that brings wolves up behind your troops?

Also, the seraphs are so incredibly cheap for their power that Caelum will always have more fighting mages than any other race.

They certainly won't research much faster or have more mages than C'Tis, nor Utgard, nor Machaka.

I will agree that Caelum becomes somewhat limited late game, but I have not played past about turn 70 in any MP game as yet.

Late game is about turn 20-40 onwards, depending on when people have developed magical paths other than what their nation easily provides.