Asal Uttar

[DRG]

https://www.jammukashmirnow.com/Ency...Uttar.amp.html

[RetLT]

After reading this I decided to see how well I could do.

As DRG said, you have more intel about the Indians then the Paks did.

Also, with the exception of the Centurions, your tanks are better. Shermans are easy to kill and their main gun isn't very good at range.

I started by laying smoke to block the view of the lower approach to the city. I then sent all units down this road instead of splitting my forces into 2 columns.

I used my airstrikes to spot the hidden Indian tanks then used smoke to create fire lanes where I could overwhelm small groups of Indian tanks at a time.

I managed to take all of the v hexes but heavy losses only got me to a 1.5/1 Draw. Considering the historical outcome, I am happy with this.

It is fun to play scenarios like this when you have nothing to lose.

Give it another try.

[DRG]

Given the Historical outcome, I would say a 1.5/1 Draw is a marginal victory for the Pakistanis for, in reality, their defeat here cost them the initiative in the war.

I am surprised at how many maps I found of this battle and discussions of it

https://medium.com/indian-defence/ba...d-86d289cd6798

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by RetLT

After reading this I decided to see how well I could do.

As DRG said, you have more intel about the Indians then the Paks did.

I went in knowing the Indians were there, I didn't go in with the idea that even knowing that meant I was going to win. I tried the middle approach, using the forest as the cover, it didn't help and the Paki airforce...yeah they were there but didn't do much really.

As for your comment that the M48s and M47s are better tanks, what scenario did you run? The Shermans were killing them just as easily as the Centurions and their 105s and 20pds. The 90mm pop-gun wasn't doing much of anything against anything without three hits on a target and even then that was lucky.

[RetLT]

I played scn 39.

At range my 90s got kills against Shermans and AMXs about 75% of the time while the Indian 76s killed mine less than 20% of the time.

The Centurions got kills about 90% of the time so I smoked them in as much as possible.

I only killed 3 tanks with my aircraft but they were much more valuable in spotting the Indian tanks.

[Karagin]

Originally Posted by RetLT

I played scn 39.

At range my 90s got kills against Shermans and AMXs about 75% of the time while the Indian 76s killed mine less than 20% of the time.

The Centurions got kills about 90% of the time so I smoked them in as much as possible.

I only killed 3 tanks with my aircraft but they were much more valuable in spotting the Indian tanks.

The one with the flood fields? Cause that's the one I am talking about. The Paki tanks couldn't hit the broadside of a barn and when they did it took 3 hits or more to kill anything and I have the preferences at the default levels. I watched 90mm rounds hit the AMXs and bounce for no damage. Shermans were taking two hits to kill. The Cents side or front the 90s weren't doing much of anything.

[DRG]

The random number generator (and game experience) pretty much guarantees that no two players' games on two different computers will play out exactly the same even if they make exactly the same moves and target engagements in exactly the same scenario.

It's one reason why this game system, in all its versions, has been and continues to be played for over a quarter-century.

[Aeraaa]

IIRC the Indian Cents in the scenario are mostly 20 pounder armed ones, with just a company at most of 105mm armed ones. Not only that, but they are mostly armed with the Mk1 shot (the 20 pen round) instead of the 30 pen Mk3. That helps the Pakistani Pattons survive a little bit better at long range (I do remember in my game a platoon of Pattons shooting their whole ammo vs another Indian platoon doing the same...and only 3 tanks in total out of 10 or so being destroyed).

Even so, long range fighting is definitely a handicap for Pakistani armor. To have any realistic chance of survival, the player needs to close the range ASAP (and on heavily muddy field to boot).

[Karagin]

Getting close...I never got that chance, ranged fire tore my Paki tanks to scrap metal.

[Imp]

You have more resolve than me I gave it a couple of shots before giving up.
Long time ago so cannot really remember but the main problem is getting flank shots on the Centurions as they need to be dealt with.
Causes time problems but try using the railroad & smoke to limit engagements, you have a lot offboard arty & tanks to plug gaps.
Really needs micro managing to get smoke clearing right, beware of the infantry they can really mess things up if you try to close which is when I threw in the towel as it was frying my brain.

Gamey way possibly attack with virtually everything in the bottom half of the map then let them come to you.
Good luck if you try again.