Snowdrifts

[Mobhack]

And you could then add on all the other sticking terrain like mud, trenches, streams, fords, swamps, sand dunes etc.

Not going to happen, the rough slopes and buildings are all that will be added since these (especially rough slopes) were the main complaint.

You can always turn breakdowns off in preferences, and then the problem goes away.

[Isto]

Does the breakdowns only occur to immobilization on the map ?

I could probably use that feature in that map. But that would also take away from the gameplay value. Guess we just have to move on to the green fields, the graphics are more nice in them also.

I would really appreciate those other features you mentioned too. I play this game so that my focus is on the strategy and i like to move my units fast.

So playing that map stays frustrating as it is in the further patches also.

This is another thing we have agreed on, to play the older versions of the game as i think they are better than the newer ones. There have been more that have gone wrong than right in the last two or three patches.

The main (or the sole reason for this) issue is the armoured planes and helicopters. How they work was changed 2 or 3 pacthes ago, and the best version for them is in the older patches. It was changed (for some reason) that they always count HE penetration as 1. In the older versions HE penetration of 55 is counted as 55 as it should be. This have been reported, discussed and confirmed.

There is nothing that have been added, that outweights this.

The one thing i miss most in the newer patches is the "Load Cost" feature and that it warns from rough hexes (which is big help).

We are currently playing Ww2, so the best patch for that is the newest ones. The armoured planes / helicopters issue occur mostly on MBT, where helicopters is one of most fun unit types but they are clearly too powerful if weapon platforms like KUB / KRUG / OSA seem not to damage them.

I have been given an advice that the helicopters should be shot with tanks, but i have not yet had a single opportunity to ever shoot my opponents helicopter with a tank. He keeps them in cover, moves them to fire and goes back to cover. I have seen a Hind take 4-10 hits from AREA SAM type of missiles in the newest patches with no damage. When i see a video about those weapon platforms, they make me wonder that they could probably damage, or destroy a tank.

Am not actually sure have this been changed in the newest patch, as i have not played MBT since. But there is a lot i do not understand in here.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Isto

Does the breakdowns only occur to immobilization on the map ?

Read the Game guide

With this set to OFF you will be able to drive through buildings with tanks and APCs without the possibility of damage to the vehicle. You will be able to ford streams, mud, hedgerows, soft sand, snow drifts, trenches, and marshes without becoming stuck. If you set this to ON then there is a chance the vehicle will become trapped. It is really a vehicle sticking button, not as the title may suggest, a possibility of mechanical breakdowns due to poor maintenance. Recommended Setting: OFF for random battles versus the AI. ON for everything else.

Originally Posted by Isto

I could probably use that feature in that map. But that would also take away from the gameplay value. Guess we just have to move on to the green fields, the graphics are more nice in them also.

How could removing an issue you are complaining about take away from the gameplay value any more than constant messages every time you encounter a snowdrift asking if you really want to enter it or not?

Originally Posted by Isto

I would really appreciate those other features you mentioned too. I play this game so that my focus is on the strategy and i like to move my units fast.

So playing that map stays frustrating as it is in the further patches also.

and what you are asking for would further slow the game play as every feature that could cause a breakdown would generate a game pause for you to decide if you really want to enter it or not.... This would not speed up game play nor would it add gameplay value to the majority of the players so the solution for you is turn breakdowns OFF

Originally Posted by Isto

The one thing i miss most in the newer patches is the "Load Cost" feature

I have NO IDEA whatsoever what you are referring to here.

[Imp]

To cover some points, rough slopes are normally dotted about and can be missed so warning is helpful.
Things like streams and snowdrifts are long and therefore you look at how they are laid out and plan accordingly. You said you like looking at the tactical side well that’s crucially important if you have vehicles
Streams snowdrifts mud and swamps play an important part in your tactics for the map so help is not needed you take them into account rarely. Rough slopes you plan if there’s a line of them but more often than not they can be driven round.

Planes have not changed to my knowledge they have always been an oddball regarding weapon stats read the guide on plane armament. Helicopter armament works the same as all other units

[Isto]

About that helicopter / Air thing. It have been stated by DRG and / or Mobhack, i just reported it. As i see it and in my experience they have changed. I suppose the last version where they work like they used to is MBT version 11. From there on, the air units with armor value of 2 or more have become a lot more resilient against High Explosive missiles. This is quite problematic as these are the main weapon types they are countered with.

The newest odd thing i have found is that the FLAK units have armor piercing rounds that are there for ground targets and they neglect on using them against the air units, and do not shoot them at all if they are the only rounds they have left. In my opinion, engaging air targets is the sole reason why i take FLAK unit types. And the game designers seem to have an opinion, that they should not be used against air targets at all.

I am imagining a situation where the commander shouts mad at them to shoot the planes and the FLAK crew say back to their commander that no they wont, because they are saving the rounds against ground targets.

Those other things does not clearly matter, so no need to talk about them.

If someone tests the map, please give me a feedback on it.

I also post another map, but it is not game ready and probably not a map to do battle at all. It is an artistic and absurd as it is but i have created it for fun and to test the map editor program. In this map you can see all the terrain features clearly, even when the map is zoomed out. In the previous map you can not, even when the map is zoomed in. This is mainly the issue for me, and why i asked about the snowdrifts in the first place. The summer maps are clearly superior to the snow maps in terms of gameplay.

[Imp]

Okay misunderstood thought you were talking about their weapons not their armour.
Yes there is a problem with armoured air you seem to need warhead size 6 minimum to cause damage.
Versus a heavy armoured helo (4) probably warhead 10 plus.
Armour 4 baring a lucky hit is immune to all MANPADs and virtually all None Area Sams like the Patriot
Warhead size seems more important than HE
15 HE 10W probably the minimum to cause a couple of points of damage won’t kill it.
70 HE 20W overkill normally 30-200+ damage from my observations.

Do a test turn experience off and set to 60-100 helo-Sam side. Edit EW to zero for helos to improve hit chances. Possibly increase hitting never tried that.

Regarding AA guns firing AP rounds at air targets have you never watched a war movie with Flak?
You fire HE at air and hope it gets hit by the blast because your chances of actually hitting the plane are remote.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Imp

Okay misunderstood thought you were talking about their weapons not their armour.
Yes there is a problem with armoured air you seem to need warhead size 6 minimum to cause damage.
Versus a heavy armoured helo (4) probably warhead 10 plus.
Armour 4 baring a lucky hit is immune to all MANPADs and virtually all None Area Sams like the Patriot
Warhead size seems more important than HE
15 HE 10W probably the minimum to cause a couple of points of damage won’t kill it.
70 HE 20W overkill normally 30-200+ damage from my observations.

Do a test turn experience off and set to 60-100 helo-Sam side. Edit EW to zero for helos to improve hit chances. Possibly increase hitting never tried that.

Regarding AA guns firing AP rounds at air targets have you never watched a war movie with Flak?
You fire HE at air and hope it gets hit by the blast because your chances of actually hitting the plane are remote.

And that is exactly the type of info we need to work from if / when we do any further code work

[Isto]

Shooting any rounds against air targets is better than shooting none and having some when the purpose is being an anti air unit.

This is common sense.

In ww2 armoured planes are available only at the end of the war, thus needing some adjustments in the anti air measures: to use specific and effective anti armor rounds against them.

As a steel panther commander and given the possibility, i would order my units to do so.

[Suhiir]

I've managed to damage Hinds (armor 2? weren't they 4 pre 2019?) with Stingers (warhead 4) BUT even when you hit it's only like 1 in 4 that causes damage, the rest bounce off.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The German 8.8 cm/88mm Flak 18/36/37/41/43 series was probably the best all around anti-aircraft/anti-tank and artillery weapon of WWII and a bit beyond.

So what kills planes, jets and UAV's? Shrapnel. You have to keep things in context here, we play a game based on a 50 meter hex or if you will 54.7 yards or again 164 feet (Slightly rounded off.) side to side.

And inside of this you have one of the above craft jinxing etc. to as they said when taking out the "Death Star" "Stay on Target, Stay on Target" Well good luck with your AP round hitting your target.

The A-10, HIND , APACHE and on and on again are armored to protect the pilots and vital areas of the aircraft from shrapnel causing damage to fuel, electrical and hydraulic systems. By definition this includes the airframe and aerial surfaces to some extent as well.

HE shrapnel will shred an engine which is why SAM's work the way they do (See Ref. below) or even AA. But there's more to it then that so here's another Ref both from well respected "Think Tanks"...
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...-warthog-52677

How to kill a plane and well, avoid being killed.
http://ausairpower.net/TE-Evading-Missiles.html

In artillery and I could careless of what type we're talking about, "Proximity" is what kills something. Shrapnel, Percussion (Shock Wave) that'll liquefy your internal organs and the occasional and lucky direct hit depending on your point of view.

And now I start to digress, so back to the top most artillery pieces have proved themselves with or without some modification to be very effective in a multi roles as AA, Artillery and Anti-Tank roles such as the Pak-88.

If you were to tell me a modern day SPA unit couldn't (And don't kid yourselves on the following that they can't.) take out a modern tank in direct fire or using their FCS to target a tank, well you'd be wrong.

But the Pak 88 wasn't FCS assisted compared to systems of today or earlier "yesterday" but, it has proven itself to be one of the most effective Anti-Tank guns made in its time and a bit beyond. That should cover the AP round issue to some extent.

And there is the case of the French M3 AA Quad 50's (3 I believe.) at DIEN BIEN PHU ask the VIET-MINH how they felt about them. REALLY didn't like them too much.

Did I talk about measurements!?! I know, I know, but that is a game reality now isn't it!?! There is one last measurement that applies here as well and that is Time, Speed and Distance a lot of math seems to go into these things now don't they!?! Or as we would apply in Submarine Navigation sometimes you just need a little "PFM", which could mean many things to many people!

Good Something to you all, for me this weekend is a little about reflection and remembering.

The 2 or 3 Threads on CM Artillery etc. will provide a much better understanding of the issues thus far discussed in this area.

I almost forgot, this Thread was about "Snowdrifts". Well lets just say this about that, snowdrifts up to 30,000ft or higher would not, I repeat not, be good for any type of aircraft manned or unmanned!! However it would relieve of the need for any another anti-air systems. So there you have "Snowdrifts" are EFFECTIVE against any weapons well especially up to or higher then 30,000ft. Just a thought.

Regards,
Pat