Current Finnish OOB - some notes for discussion

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The design guides are a starting baseline, and not gospel. So if your team actually had laser RF on some of their RCL - go large. The points calculator will charge for them, after all.

Yes, quite right, I wrote that before thinking about the ranging rifles and didn't check if it they were modeled. So, I apologize for my ignorance.

[PvtJoker]

Quick note about radio values: medium tanks and MBTs have too low radio values. Even during WW2 all medium tanks and the StuG IIIG assault guns in Finnish service had radios, mostly because all vehicles purchased from Germany had one (even ex-Soviet T-34s). The few vehicles captured directly from the Soviets received radios in Finland. Tanks purchased from the Soviet Union in the 1950s and 1960s received two-way sets in Finland.

On the other hand, infantry squads and MGs have too high radio values (60-70) up to 1980s. Finnish infantry did not have platoon radios until the early 1960s.

[PvtJoker]

And now for the AFV notes:

The situation of the T-26 tanks is problematic. These vehicles were declared obsolete already in July 1944 and took large losses in summer 1944. They should really be placed in the obsolete tank category, since it is very unlikely that these death traps would have been used in combat in the 1950s. However, I am hesitant to do that because the AI pick list apparently includes light tanks even in the 1950s.

T-28e has a wrong main gun, should be L-10. I will assume use of Finnish AP, which was superior to captured Soviet WW2 AP.

T-34's have the ZiS-3 as the main gun. I will copy the correct F-34 from Russian OOB. Although test data for the F-34 is not available, AP Penetration with Finnish WW2 ammo can be interpolated to be 11 and a small amount of WW2 HEAT with penetration 8 was probably available for the T-34s post-WW2. I will also extend the range of the gun by 10 hexes to 70 in order to better match the long range ballistics of the Finnish AP. http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANK_GUNS.htm#F-34

The radio codes of WW2 vintage tanks are not very good. The Pz IVj was the most common WW2 medium tank in Finnish service, T-34-85 was second. The T-34 M42 was represented by exactly one tank (...). I will modify them so that hordes of T-34s are no longer selected.

Sabot penetration values of British 20-pounder and 77mm HV gun seem to be too low at muzzle; somebody probably made a poor job at extrapolation. I have used consensus numbers from web sources.

The T-54s in Finnish service were actually model T-54-3 a.k.a. M1951. Due to purchase date (1959) people have often assumed that they were T-54Bs, but T-54-3 has been confirmed by serious sources. Also, they lacked gun stabilizers, which closes the case. They were never modernized in Finland apart from the ammo and radios, so units 410 and 411 have wrong FC and RF values.

The penetrations of the PT-76's D56TS (weapon 086) are quite strange. It appears that the Sabot value is for the WW2 vintage BR-354P APCR and the AP value is for the 1950s streamlined BR-354N APCR. The HEAT value is probably for the 1955 fin-stabilized BK-354М. I'm going to change that so that the AP value (12) is for the post-WW2 BR-354 APCBC and the Sabot value (15, same range as AP) for the BR-354N. Source: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/ПТ-76, except BK-354М. I have no idea if the Soviets actually sold the latest BR-354N and BK-354М to Finland, but I assume so like the original OOB designer did...

The modernization of the T-55 in late 1980s did not include armor upgrades beyond the addition of side skirts, but it did include the Mecar M1000 APFSDS round. At the time it was the most advanced APFSDS round available for the D-10 gun with a high L/D monoblock tungsten alloy penetrator. The only estimation I have found about it is 350 mm @ 2000 meters @ 0 degree. Official figure was penetration of NATO Triple Heavy target at 3000 meters, which unfortunately does not tell us much. So, I took the newer Israeli/Romanian M309 round from the Romanian OOB as a rough guideline using available estimates and ended up with Sabot penetration 45. There were also rumors in the 1990s that the M1000 was supposed to penetrate T-72 turret at 1000 meters and with Sabot Pen 45 that is possible.

The T-55MS also got a new Swedish integrated FCS, the same in fact as the modernized version of the Ikv 91 tank destroyer, which has FC30. Also, according to tankers who served on both the T-55MS and the T-72M1, the former had a much better FCS. T-55MS is still used in small numbers, so I have made it available until 2020.

125mm D-81 penetrations assume Soviet domestic standard rounds. The HEAT numbers are too high (BK-14M HEAT was the best exported from the USSR). Finland also never purchased new HEAT rounds for the gun in the 1990s but continued to use the BK-14M.

No decisions yet on BMP-2 modernization. Probably it will not happen in the current economy, but I will push it a couple of years forward just in case.

XA-180 PaSi still very much in use. Modernization closer to XA-203 standard is planned, but has not started yet.

Vehicle grade Gen3 image intensifier is used on the XA-203 RWS, so Vision 30.

The FC etc. values for the AMV should be the same for both armaments, since the turret is the same. The .50 cal armed version had lower values for some reason.

BTR-50PUM1 was in Light APC class. It is a command vehicle, so FO Vehicle class in the game (although for many command vehicles that does not actually make much sense)

Leopard 2A5FIN was cancelled. Instead, Leopard 2A6 were bought from the Netherlands, so I copied the unit and the 120mm L55 gun from the Dutch OOB.

I may have forgotten some minor changes I made... But as usual: http://youtu.be/nnwWKkNau4I

[PvtJoker]

AA stuff:

Fixed 7.62 M/31-40 AAMG HE kill (double barrel with 900 rpm for each barrel) and upped FC to 2 (as far as iron AA sights go, it had a fairly sophisticated one).

Added 7.62 M/32 AAMG. This is the M/32-33 used in AAMG mode (AA sights were standard issue and the tripod could be used in AA mode).

Added 7.62mm quadruple Maxim AAMG truck. These ex-Soviet AAMGs were still warehoused in the late 1940s.

Fixed 20mm VKT AAG HE kill (it was very low for a twin barrel 20mm gun). AP pen 4 (same cartridge as Lahti ATR and German 20mm AA guns).

Added 20mm FlaK 38 AA gun.

Increased FC of 30mm Hispano-Suiza and Bofors M/59 AA guns to 12. They had a electronic predictor sight (Galileo).

Gave the modernized 35mm M/88 (Oerlikon) an LRF, which it does have, and more FC to reflect the GunKing digital FCS. Also added LRF to later radar based versions.

Increased FC of all Radar controlled AA guns. Specifically increased the FC of the 57mm AA gun under radar control (the RPK-1M1 / Flap Wheel was a fairly sophisticated AAA FCS by 1960s standards). On the minus side that makes the Radar FC values "incompatible" with official OOBs, which have lower (too low, IMO) values for the same systems.

Increased the FC of NSV AAMG to 3. It has a pretty good reflector sight, which can be used with image intensifiers. The same sight is used on NSVs installed on Finnish vehicles like the XA-18x series, so they get the same FC/RF values as well. I also gave it AP rounds (value 2). The 12.7x108mm B-32 AP can easily penetrate more than 20mm of RHA at muzzle, so in game terms the AP rounds are superior to HE kill 1 up to 450 meters and even beyond.

Increased FC of 23mm M/95 AA gun (modernized ZU-23-2). It has a fully digital FCS with integrated LRF and TI. (It's just too short ranged by 21st Century standards.)

Disabled Itpsv 2010 AA. Modernization of the Itpsv 91 was cancelled. (The T-55 chassis is obsolescent and spare parts availability for the radar is poor. Installing a new radar would cost a lot for just 7 vehicles.)

Disabled unit 208. Both the ItOhj 86 types were Iglas.

Added Stinger RMP block 1 (FIM-92E) from 2015. http://www.puolustusvoimat.fi/wcm/ff...df?MOD=AJPERES

As usual, I may have not documented all minor changes I've made.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

You are correct about the 2A6FIN UNIT 021 it was submitted in my last Patch Input and I recommended a simple transfer of Dutch 2NLA6 UNIT 037. I noted the discrepancy in the Patch/or MBT Thread(s) after the last game patch was released (I always bounce my inputs off the released game patch which is how I found the error.) so, it is on my work list to be fixed (Armor was also an issue with the 2A6FIN.) along with the deletion of the 2A4FIN as you noted the modernization was cancelled. Please note that the reason I submitted LEO 2A6 as the 2A6FIN was to hopefully make it easier in transferring over the Dutch tanks to the Finnish OOB. I understand the "FIN" would normally be used to indicate an upgrade/or modernization program for their armor. The remaining LEO 2A4 tanks will at least be in service until 2020 and possibly a couple of more years after. The Dutch tanks included a ten year logistics and spare parts package with the Finnish purchase. As noted in the MBT Thread it would have cost the Finns 1/2 the cost of a new LEO 2A7+ to upgrade their LEO 2A4 tanks vs. 1/2 again that cost to buy the Dutch LEO 2A6 tanks that were fully upgraded and well maintained. What would you do? I'd thank the Dutch for their tanks.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...inland-020936/
I'll also submit a new picture.

Regards,
Pat

[PvtJoker]

Infantry stuff:

As I wrote earlier, changed many sections to mixed bolt-action and SMG armament. Some still retain SMG or bolt-action only due to limited number of weapon slots.

No horse cavalry after WW2, I'm afraid. Officially the Finnish Dragoons were permanently dismounted in 1947 and became infantry, but in fact they did not have enough horses for all troopers after 1943. I converted the Dragoon units to infantry, so now they are basically just better than normal infantry, although there probably is not much basis for them being any better than average Finnish conscripts. They still get to call themselves dragoons, though...

Limited the number of units with 7.62mm RK 54 (AK-47). Only 25,000 of them were purchased in the 1950s. That said, whoever got the brilliant idea of separating all the AK action assault rifles chambered for 7.62x39mm cartridge in Finnish service to separate weapons in the game was way over-zealous. They all have the same specs in the game (except the versions with optical sights).

On a similar note, there are separate weapons entries for the DP-27 (also called DP-28 in some English sources) and DPM LMGs like there were significant enough differences between them which could be modeled in the game. The DP-27 also had too low accuracy; it had exactly the same length barrel as the DPM. In any case, all DPs captured by the Finnish Army in WW2 were DP-27s, so DPM should not appear at all. I will change the DPM to DP-27 which fixes the "problem".

Added 66 KeS 12 (M72 EC LAW Mk.I) for some infantry units from 2015. I also changed some of the the sections to 9 men with 2 PKM LMGs (doubled weapon) from the same date, according to a new squad and platoon level organization being adopted. The details are still a bit fuzzy, but 9 men squads with 3 fire teams seems fairly certain at this point.

Some additional trimming like removing a Marksman with a basic M/39 Rifle after 1994. Created a new DMR unit with an RK 95 with optics to replace it (As if there actually were enough ACOGs for any other units than special forces... )

Changed the names of some units to make more sense of many similar, but slightly different units with the same name and concurrent availability.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Concerning the XA-203 RWS 3rd Gen TI/GSR you can safely go to VISION 40. At the start of my equipment submissions a few years ago, Don and I had set some basic guidelines in my submitting equipment and data to include TI/GSR values, based on those discussions (I believe this can be found in the early Patch Thread Posts.) some advanced 2nd GEN (ABRAMS comes to mind here.) and all noted 3rd GEN TI/GSR systems should have a minimum value of 40 and some higher depending on the platform and references provided concerning the FCS. RWS are no exception to this at a range of 2000m. Just don't want you to "under sell" your equipment and their true capabilities.
Afterall this is not a game about Business but, a Wargame matching your representative OOB capabilities against your opponents, for better or worse.

Regards,
Pat

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Concerning the XA-203 RWS 3rd Gen TI/GSR you can safely go to VISION 40. At the start of my equipment submissions a few years ago, Don and I had set some basic guidelines in my submitting equipment and data to include TI/GSR values, based on those discussions (I believe this can be found in the early Patch Thread Posts.) some advanced 2nd GEN (ABRAMS comes to mind here.) and all noted 3rd GEN TI/GSR systems should have a minimum value of 40 and some higher depending on the platform and references provided concerning the FCS.
Regards,
Pat

Thank Pat. However, I must point out that the XA-203 does not have a TI sight but just an Image Intensifier (albeit a modern one). So Vision 30 is the correct choice.

[PvtJoker]

More tank stuff:

I increased the HE kill value of PKT machine guns to 8. The PKT has a higher rate of fire (750-800 rpm) than infantry PK(M). Any reputable source will confirm that.

Extended the availability of Comet, Charioteer and StuG 40 as "Reserve tanks". These vehicles were kept around for a long time after active crew training ended. It is not available in open sources when the army stopped maintaining them and how long ammo stocks were preserved.

The last of the British tanks were auctioned off in 2007 along with some StuGs. At that stage they were in fairly bad shape visually, but probably could have been restored to running condition relatively quickly if the SHTF, so to speak.

In any case, the Comets were always classified as training tanks and at least officially they had no combat role even in the 1960s. I personally do not buy that, however, since just a few years earlier technically inferior WW2 vehicles were still considered combat-worthy. Classifying them purely as training vehicles was probably politically motivated. Before the purchase of T-55s in 1966 Finland had more British tanks (Comet & Charioteer) than Soviet ones (T-54 & PT-76) and in the balancing act of the cold war that would have been a Bad Thing.

[shahadi]

I don't have an interest in Finnish "this or that" at this point and don't anticipate having one; however, I read your fascinating posts for the education and apparent due diligence that your posts exhibit each and every time. I see a post authored by PvtJoker, I read it!

Good job.