Finnish OOB35 Corrections and Suggestions PART 2 -- Units

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

You may be right, that BT-5 should have front hull 3.
As for turret: the mentioned Bronekollektsya says 13 mm, but J. Magnuski wrote in his book 15 mm. It's strange, but I can't find any other detailed Russian monographs on this tank.

Russian Battlefield gives:

"Наставления автобронетанковых войск РККА. Танк БТ-5", М. Отдел издательства НКО СССР - М.1935 г.
М. Павлов, И. Желтов, И. Павлов "Танки БТ", М. Экспринт 2001 г.
М. Барятинский "Советские танки в бою", М. Яуза 2006 г.

as sources. (I know, the first one isn't available to most people). There is also Mikhail Baryatinskiy's "Light Tanks" in English, which Jaeger Platoon site probably used as source for the background data and development history.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Russian Battlefield gives:

"Наставления автобронетанковых войск РККА. Танк БТ-5", М. Отдел издательства НКО СССР - М.1935 г.
М. Павлов, И. Желтов, И. Павлов "Танки БТ", М. Экспринт 2001 г.
М. Барятинский "Советские танки в бою", М. Яуза 2006 г.

as sources. (I know, the first one isn't available to most people).

The first one is actually easiest to find, but I don't think that military manual of 1935 would reveal armour thickness and weak points
http://www.farposst.ru/2013/10/16/ta..._sil_rkka.html

The second one may be interesting, in terms of specifications - the last one is rather general source.

[Cross]

Here's what I have on the BT-5

Sorry about the poor quality of the first image, which appears to have 13mm HF with 62deg slope, which equals 28mm





Cross

[Pibwl]

Interesting. That's what I was looking for. It would mean, that a small nose plate indeed was 40 mm, lower plate - 30 mm, and driver's hatch - 20 mm. It also shows 4mm longitudinal bulkheads behind 13mm side walls.

The second picture is of course a prototype BT-5IS.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Interesting. That's what I was looking for. It would mean, that a small nose plate indeed was 40 mm, lower plate - 30 mm, and driver's hatch - 20 mm. It also shows 4mm longitudinal bulkheads behind 13mm side walls.

The second picture is of course a prototype BT-5IS.

I think only 5 of the IS were made.

Cross

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Interesting. That's what I was looking for. It would mean, that a small nose plate indeed was 40 mm, lower plate - 30 mm, and driver's hatch - 20 mm. It also shows 4mm longitudinal bulkheads behind 13mm side walls.

The second picture is of course a prototype BT-5IS.

All of that has been pretty well established already, I think. The 4mm bulkheads apparently were not made of armor grade steel, but softer structural steel (perhaps not quite 'mild' steel, but still).

The really interesting thing here is that it shows 20mm turret front armor just as Jaeger Platoon specs claimed. Perhaps I should write JTV and ask where he got them, but my guess is Baryatinskiy's "Light Tanks".

[Pibwl]

Armoured cars:

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Unit 024 BA-10: replace with BA-6 (currently missing) from Soviet OOB unit 311. Keep the current availability start (Feb 1940), extend end to Dec 1946.

Unit 025 BA-10+: rename to plain BA-10, available since Apr 1940 until Dec 1946. Harmonize other data with Soviet Unit 041 BA-10, except ammo total 43 rounds (should probably be corrected to the Soviet unit as well). As recon vehicles the BA-10 usually had radios, so radio chance should be much higher than 20. (The radio chance of 10 is quite low for the Soviet unit as well, although late production examples after the German invasion often did not have a radio).

Unit 111 BA-3: no radios.

We should definitely create BA-6, which was much more numerous, than BA-3.
The question is, if it should replace one of BA-10s (the two differ slightly in speed only and one seems redundant), or BA-3 (according to indispensable Jaeger Platoon site, there was only one BA-3 known to be used http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARMOURED_CARS4.htm).

According to Jaeger Platoon, the Finns actually designated these cars BAF A, BAF B and BAF C respectively, so I think it's worth to rename them this way.
BAF A (BA-3) could stay for a sake of completeness, but then it should have radio x1 or x3.

The only difference in game terms between BA-6 and BA-3 would be speed: according to Russian book on medium ACs by M. Kolomiets, max speed of BA-6 on pneumatic tires was 52 km/h (=17), which is actual speed of unit 111 (BA-3 should be slightly faster - according to different figures in the Russian book, 57, 60 or even 70 km/h on road).
BA-6 on Soviet full rubber tires was slower - 42 km/h, but I don't know, if the Finns used them long (they had relatively low durability - max 1300 km)

For BA-3 there should be no radio indeed, while some 15% of Soviet BA-6 had radio.

As for BA-10 -according to the quoted book, speed was 60 or 67 with pneumatic tires.
Some 40% cars produced in 1940 had radio.

To finish with medium armoured cars:
110 Landsverk 182 - according to Jaeger Platoon, it should be used until 11/40 (now 12/39) - then there should be created second entry with 20mm gun, used until 12/41 (there is weapon 133 20mm Lahti ATR, but as an infantry weapon).
Radio of both should be x1 (only one car)

It would be good to give it an own icon (now it's common with BA) - maybe like 179 of Dutch Landsverks, but green.

Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

The only difference in game terms between BA-6 and BA-3 would be speed: according to Russian book on medium ACs by M. Kolomiets, max speed of BA-6 on pneumatic tires was 52 km/h (=17), which is actual speed of unit 111 (BA-3 should be slightly faster - according to different figures in the Russian book, 57, 60 or even 70 km/h on road).

According to other reports, lower value probably will be more correct.

By the way: I've just read, that BA-3, BA-6 and especially BA-10A (early series) had a fuel tank under a roof, behind the driver's and gunner's heads, what made them very inflammable in case of damage. Therefore, their survivability could be lowered to 2 (it was improved however in BA-10M).

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Unit 2 FT-17: This tank was called FT-17 "female" in Finland (Translated to English, since the OOB does not use Finnish words elsewhere, either). Since Jan 1938 main weapon was a Maxim M/09-31, which had a rate of fire of 900 rounds per minute. A TMG for that gun should be added to weapons as well. HE Kill would probably be 8. (...)

Unit 3 FT-18: called FT-17 "male" in Finland.

Why not call them "FT-17 koiras" (male) and "FT-17 naaras" (female) if it's the way they actually called them? I'm against translating purely descriptive terms, like "early", but this is not the case.
(besides, I don't know how about native English speakers, but "female" for a tank always seemed a bit stupid to me


HE Kill of M/09-31 could be actually even 9 IMO, if it fired 900 rds/min. So we need two tanks: with Hotchkiss up to mid-37 (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS1.htm), and with M/09-31 from this date (not Jan 38).

Similarly, infantry's weapon #124 7.62mm M/33 HMG should have higher HE Kill (now: 7) - it fired up to 850 rds/min according to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MG1.htm

Unit 004 Vickers 6s: the Coaxial MG was the Maxim M/09-31 mentioned above. Ammo load 35 HE, 15 AP. No Sabot!

Right. And crew should be 4 (+ SMG gunner).
Most probably turret rear armour should be 2 as well (sources say, that turret front and sides had 13.6 mm, but there's no separate info concerning rear, while the turret was conical and probably identical from all sides).

We could also add temporary variant of Vickers, from 7/38 to 11/39, armed with CMG and bow SMG only.

Unit 005 T-26 M31: Turrets' armor was less than 10mm all-around, so SP armor value for turret should be 1 for all faces. No radios, so radio code should be 1 (actually this tank was pretty common in Finnish use in 1941, so radio code could be also 0, but that's up to you).

It should be radio 1, because gun tanks were more numerous and much more valuable.

According to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS3.htm, the Fins actually designated T-26 M31, M33 and M38 as T-26A, B and C respectively - I think it's worth to rename them this way, instead of customary year designations.

Unit 006 T-26 M33: I would give this one radio code 2, since it was the most common of T-26 variants in Finnish service. Only command tanks had radios in any case, so no chance for others to get them.

Radio 1x should stay - only command tanks had radios in 1941, but in a course of the war, more tanks with radios were surely captured. At Jaeger Platoon it says : "the grand majority of the captured T-26 tanks in Finnish use were never equipped with radios", so 10 looks OK.

Unit 007 T-26 (OT-130): probably radio code 1 would be suitable. The numbers of these conversions is unknown, but it could not have been very significant.
Unit 009 T-26 (OT-133): probably radio code 1 as per unit 007.

Right. Name should be T-26B (OT-130 / 133).

Unit 010 T-26E: radio code 0, no radios except in some command tanks.

Current radio 10 seems enough.
Armour shouldn't differ from original Vickers (remembering, that turret's rear should be 2)

An icon should have a turret on the right side and slightly more to the rear, than T-26 tanks (now it has it on the left, and the hull is the same as T-26). If the icon will be reworked someday, it should also have more pronounced rear "box", like 7TP 2654 icon.

(If we'd like to be overly precise, an icon of basic Vickers variant should also have turret on the right side - now it is central. Also, a gun is a bit too small for 37 mm and a turret should have more pronounced rear "box".
Also T-26 (OT-130) and T-26 (OT-133) had in reality a turret on the right side, just like OT-130/133.


However, I've just noticed, that in scenario editor, icons of an opponent on right side are mirrored anyway...


Unit 014 T-28, 015 T-28E - weapon #49 should be renamed L-10 gun (data are correct).
Why not call them Postijuna, as was the Finnish nickname?

T-34s could be nick-named Sotka.

Unit 020 KV-1c: Harmonize data with Soviet OOB unit 023. Move Sabot ammunition to regular AP. Finnish designation was KV-1A, if you want to confuse people even more (possibly KV-1A (M1942) would be acceptable?)

Unit 020 KV-1e: Harmonize data with Soviet OOB. Finnish designation was KV-1B, if you want to confuse people even more (possibly KV-1B (KV-1E) would be acceptable?)

I'd vote to name them just KV-1A and KV-1B, according to their Finnish official designations. There's no need IMO to add other names - if anyone is interested in buying these tanks, he should check their stats



Unit 112 BA-20M, 113 FAI - maybe they should be renamed BAB B and BAB A, according to their Finnish designation? (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARMOURED_CARS3.htm)

Suggest addition of MG units with 7.92mm Maxim MG-08. Import weapon 122 from German OOB (While pondering why it has a higher HE Kill than other 7-8mm Maxim MGs and MGs with similar cyclic rate of fire and belt feed ).

I've noticed it as well. In fact, ROF of MG08 is usually even quoted in lower values, than of other similar MGs (300-450 rpm) - which should be HEK no more, than 5.

Michal

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Why not call them "FT-17 koiras" (male) and "FT-17 naaras" (female) if it's the way they actually called them? I'm against translating purely descriptive terms, like "early", but this is not the case.
(besides, I don't know how about native English speakers, but "female" for a tank always seemed a bit stupid to me

As you probably knew, "male" and "female" descriptions were used in WW1 for British tanks to differentiate between cannon and machine gun only armed variants (respectively). That is most likely where the Finnish army got those terms as well, just translated to Finnish.

It was common for crews to give their tanks female names, by the way, even for the the ones with big guns.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Similarly, infantry's weapon #124 7.62mm M/33 HMG should have higher HE Kill (now: 7) - it fired up to 850 rds/min according to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MG1.htm

Yes, up to. Rate of fire was 800-850 rpm, but I agree that perhaps it should be 8. I'm not sure how well the cyclic rate of fire and HE Kill values match in general; there seems to be some fluctuation depending on the OOB.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

According to http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TANKS3.htm, the Fins actually designated T-26 M31, M33 and M38 as T-26A, B and C respectively - I think it's worth to rename them this way, instead of customary year designations.

Right. Name should be T-26B (OT-130 / 133).

Current radio 10 seems enough.
Armour shouldn't differ from original Vickers (remembering, that turret's rear should be 2)

An icon should have a turret on the right side and slightly more to the rear, than T-26 tanks (now it has it on the left, and the hull is the same as T-26). If the icon will be reworked someday, it should also have more pronounced rear "box", like 7TP 2654 icon.

(If we'd like to be overly precise, an icon of basic Vickers variant should also have turret on the right side - now it is central. Also, a gun is a bit too small for 37 mm and a turret should have more pronounced rear "box".
Also T-26 (OT-130) and T-26 (OT-133) had in reality a turret on the right side, just like OT-130/133.

However, I've just noticed, that in scenario editor, icons of an opponent on right side are mirrored anyway...

Unit 014 T-28, 015 T-28E - weapon #49 should be renamed L-10 gun (data are correct).
Why not call them Postijuna, as was the Finnish nickname?

T-34s could be nick-named Sotka.

I'd vote to name them just KV-1A and KV-1B, according to their Finnish official designations. There's no need IMO to add other names - if anyone is interested in buying these tanks, he should check their stats

Unit 112 BA-20M, 113 FAI - maybe they should be renamed BAB B and BAB A, according to their Finnish designation? (http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARMOURED_CARS3.htm)

Michal

I really don't have a firm opinion on using the national designations. SP1 used them for T-26 if I remember correctly, but then again it used the German designations for all Soviet tanks as well... Postijuna and Sotka are okay as nicknames, I suppose. I also wouldn't waste too much time on fine-tuning the icons, but of course I have nothing against it if someone is willing to do it.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

I really don't have a firm opinion on using the national designations. SP1 used them for T-26 if I remember correctly, but then again it used the German designations for all Soviet tanks as well...

In this case, T-26A etc. are official designations, while T-26 M.1931 etc. aren't Soviet, but only conventional ones.


More minor corrections:

As for BA-6 - there is a picture 19761

17 T-34 M42 - photo is M43, correct is 23553

22 Panssar IVJ - it used MG-34 MGs, only in 1950s they were changed to DT [Jaeger Platoon].

23 StuG M40 G - it should have external DT MG with a shield, as seen on photos (I doubt, if it was AAMG)
Picture 19767 is better IMO

41 47mm M39 AT-Gun - correct picture is 23518 or standard Italian 16151 (current one has "bicycle" wheels, probably Estonian according to one description)


Michal