Polish OOB 5.5

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

By the "correct ammo" you mean penetration values for specific guns only?..

Michal

I shall endeavor to be more clear in the future

In SP "ammo" differences and improvements are reflected by the stats in the "weapon" or "gun" so in this case I was refering to the distribution of different HEAT and SABOT ammo types ( like BM-9 or BK-12 etc etc etc etc) to the Russian and other states using the 125mm gun and NOT the distrubution of HEAT and Sabot or HE etc ammo to the UNIT itself.

Don

[Marcello]

As for flamethrower tanks: unfortunatley, Russian sources don't tell explicitly, that "they weren't exported". They only don't tell anything about their export, which also may be some hint. There were made only 110 TO-54, and TO-55 wasn't numerous either (no exact data are given).

Well, production numbers are already a start and certainly lean heavily towards them not being exported to everyone and his uncle. Generally I tend to be cautious on such matter, as proving the absence of something is always harder than the reverse. So far I have only asked for the T-62 flamethrowers to be removed from the OOBs I focused on, as I got info that no such variant was mass produced and likely not even designed.

That being said there is always the possibility that a nation or two got delivery of such niche equipment, therefore I asked.
It appears that North Korea possibly got some OT-34s based on the 1943 model for example but I have yet to verify it.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Marcello

So far I have only asked for the T-62 flamethrowers to be removed from the OOBs I focused on, as I got info that no such variant was mass produced and likely not even designed.

That being said there is always the possibility that a nation or two got delivery of such niche equipment, therefore I asked.
It appears that North Korea possibly got some OT-34s based on the 1943 model for example but I have yet to verify it.

M. Baryatynski doesn't list such T-62 variant in his "Sovetskaya bronetankovaya tekhnika 1945-95" vol.1.
As for OT-34 in Korea - delivering wartime surplus, made in 1170 units, is more likely, than TO-54/55.

Michal

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well we've certainly run into this problem before. Unfortunately it would seem that the older the equipment the harder it is to find tangible and reliable information on it unless your dealing with historical issues associated with wars. So with that in mind and with the understanding that a couple of these refs are relevant to the current discussion going on in the other two threads from yesterday, I shall attempt to "muddy the waters" a little on the flame tank issue at hand for the T-62 or if you will the OT-62. Bottom line I think we're left with a conundrum.

First; I've put this out there elsewhere probably in the MBT thread but the USA felt the Soviets had this tank as it appears in INO534 Edition D Lesson 1; Note the TERMINAL LEARNING OBJECTIVE Section before moving on.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...n0534/lsn1.htm

Second; A useful site you've seen before from me and some others, but before you start go right to the bottom and read his Source section first. Alright please!
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/tank/T-62.html

Third; Side note info on OT-54 and OT-55.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/tanks/ot-54.php
WHEN IN DOUBT GO TO THE BUILDER. Below and at the bottom right you can see the only prototype left of "OBJECT 483" from above.
http://tankmuseum.ru/p2.html

Fourth; Though now in the Ukraine it was one of the PRIMARY tank plants used by the Soviet Union/Russia. The others are in Kirovsky (No longer making them.) and currently the three major tank assembly plants in Russia are KharTcov, Nizhniy Tagil (Developer of the T-62.) and Omsk. These guys below built most of them based on it's location to the "front lines" and other factors. Explore it lots of good info here especially clicking on the tank types for all the standard version info along side the let us show you what we can do with them now stuff in the upgrade packages section. Vehicles section will show you all the tanks built under "Russian influence".
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/index.php?page=m1

Well I'm of before I get in trouble!! Have a great weekend!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

I have already removed the T-62 flame tanks from any OOB that used them.

If someone discovers they actually did exist I'll put them back in.

Don

[Warwick]

Originally Posted by DRG

I have already removed the T-62 flame tanks from any OOB that used them.

If someone discovers they actually did exist I'll put them back in.

Don

Not sure if it is the right thing to reply here or start a new thread in the scenario forum but here goes :- Scenario 140 Follow-On Forces Attack will probably have to be modified as it uses the TO-62 units CB0,1,2. If it would be of help I could do a search for any other instances.

Regards, Warwick

[DRG]

After all the deletions requested what we end up with in the Polish OOB is two ( 2 ) PT-91's plus two duplicate mine clearer's with KMT-6 all with various minor corrections suggested including matching the M1 armour but NOT upgrading the M1 to A1 status. I went through this a year or so back and am not doing it again. The "inconsistency in the Russian OOB" was a simple typo that has now been rectified.

One uses the "old ammo" up to 1999 and the other uses a part load of Pronit sabot and a part load of the old sabot as AP. There will not be any hypothetical wartime model or assumed modernized model. It's getting VERY OLD putting in "future models" only to have them evaporate so when there is an announcement that any new modernization is actually in the works, let me know but after requesting all these deletions I'm not really very open to adding in replacement guesses.

These PT-91 change leaves much of the M1 upgrades in question but I assume they are next ???

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

It's getting VERY OLD putting in "future models" only to have them evaporate so when there is an announcement that any new modernization is actually in the works, let me know but after requesting all these deletions I'm not really very open to adding in replacement guesses.

Don

just whistles quietly to herself as she contemplates the EFV

(the proposed Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle the USMC wanted to replace the LVTP-7/AAVP-7).

[DRG]

......and the other thing that REALLY PISSES ME OFF are people who use examples of future units from other OOB's to justify something they think should be in their pet OOB. I AM FED UP WITH THIS CRAP. We added things a few years ago becasue some thought it would be "kewl" to have things still on the drawing board in the game so that players could play the game 10 years in advance and have all these new wonderful toys to play with then as time goes by all these new toys are sitting on the scrap heap and we have to pull them out but one left in some OOB or another that hasn't been scrapped suddenly becomes an excuse to add more crap into the OOB's ( that we will have to pull out later and we end up with ....."Yeah but the GERMAN OOB had this or the RUSSIAN OOB has that"

TOO FRIGGING BAD.

The EFV is GONE. It was GONE the last release. We added it as a "courtesy". It's still in the USMC OOB renationalized JUST IN CASE the project is revived but it DOES NOT SHOW UP IN THE GAME. The Su-47 Berkut is in the Russian OOB and the Altay is in the Turk OOB...... it will probably die as well but I'm leaving that alone but the days of adding upgrades in thinking that it's "enevitable" are over and as the years pass and they don't come about they will be pulled as well but I have MORE THAN ENOUGH to do ATM without making more work for myself.

Shall I pull the F-35's out until we know they are actually being used operationally ?

I just gutted the PT-91's from the Polish OOB becasue someone elses previous guesses about what "might" happen didn't come to pass so why would I put in new guesses ??

Now Suhiir..... I realize you were not asking for anything you were just pointing out what has happened so this was not directed at you per se but as a general venting of frustration on the way things like this go. NOR is it aimed directly at Michal. He just happened to be the last person to bring up " future upgrades ". This particular venting has been building for awhile



Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

NOR is it aimed directly at Michal. He just happened to be the last person to bring up " future upgrades ".

...I wasn't even going to take this (rightful) criticism at my direction - one of my main motives to correct the Polish OOB (and therefore, to appear here), was to remove units, that should have been in the Polish inventory long ago according to the OOB, but aren't, or sci-fi ones

Thanks for clearing this. I only thought, that if we already have 4 or so future PT-91s, and someone made an effort to put them there, it would be reasonable to keep one or two, downgraded to something more probable (with basic armour, better stabilizer, gun and FC)...

As for T-72 - you assume right, they're coming (although not too extensive)

Cheers
Michal