Gem use, master enslave, high astral and oracle. - Page 2

Jarkko · #11 March 9th, 2011, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WraithLord

This is the kind of info that belongs in the wiki

This is the kind of info that is explicitly stated in the rulebook, and is also correctly stated in the rulebook

Read rulebook page 89 "A mage can only use as many gems as his current skill level in that path".

RonD · #12 March 9th, 2011, 10:22 AM

My experience is that AI will usually go ahead and use the maximum number of allowed gems, at least for the big-fatigue spells.

One thing I am more confident in (from running a bunch of tests in which I was teleporting an S9 Oracle + several Grand Thaumaturgs to cast Master Enslave) is that the AI is predictable - it will always use the same number of gems for the same spell given the current caster level. So running a test should let you know how many extra gems you need to carry in order to get a second spell (Returning, or Vortex of Returning) to cast.

As to why your tests varied in whether or not the Oracle cast Returning - I recently learned the very hard way that Returning is not automatic. The AI sizes up the opposition (a good question is "based on what?" I *think* it is based on the ratio of your total HP to the opposition's total HP). I would guess that the times when you Oracle did not cast Returning were cases where the Master Enslave was more successful, tipping the total HP balance more in your favor.

Kobal2 · #13 March 9th, 2011, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2

No, nothing has changed and it's always been this way. Check page 89 of the (pdf) manual. There's even an example with a mage using one gem to raise paths, and a second one to reduce fatigue.

You are reading it wrong

As has been pointed out in this thread already a few times, a mage can use at most as many gems as he has levels in the path, and one of those gems can be used to increase his level. This is the way it has always been

The example you point to tells this very clearly. The mage is an Astral 2 mage who wants to cast an Astral 3 spell. As he is Astral 2, he can use 2 gems. He uses one to raise his level to 3, and then the other to reduce the fatigue. It is explicitly stated he can not use three or more gems because his original skill (ie without the gem "boost") is 2.

Well, yes, that's... what I'm saying and been saying all along ?

Are we in violent agreement, here ?

Jarkko · #14 March 9th, 2011, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2

No, nothing has changed and it's always been this way. Check page 89 of the (pdf) manual. There's even an example with a mage using one gem to raise paths, and a second one to reduce fatigue.

You are reading it wrong

As has been pointed out in this thread already a few times, a mage can use at most as many gems as he has levels in the path, and one of those gems can be used to increase his level. This is the way it has always been

The example you point to tells this very clearly. The mage is an Astral 2 mage who wants to cast an Astral 3 spell. As he is Astral 2, he can use 2 gems. He uses one to raise his level to 3, and then the other to reduce the fatigue. It is explicitly stated he can not use three or more gems because his original skill (ie without the gem "boost") is 2.

Well, yes, that's... what I'm saying and been saying all along ?

Are we in violent agreement, here ?

Nope, you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobal2

Nope, you can only use one gem to materially boost your magic paths. You can gobble as many gems as you darn well please to soak fatigue.

You can *not* gobble as many gems as you please to soak fatigue. You can only use at most as many gems as what your level is the path.

JonBrave · #15 March 9th, 2011, 06:30 PM

I hope you don't mind a newb poking in here, but IMHO this exact question is answered in precise detail in a recent thread: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=47094.

It deals with the wording in the manual too

Kobal2 · #16 March 9th, 2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarkko

You can *not* gobble as many gems as you please to soak fatigue. You can only use at most as many gems as what your level is the path.

Ah yes, I wanted to post an addendum to that, but I either forgot or thought that part was well understood by everyone. Either way, yes, no more gem huffing than your pre-buffed path in that particular magic element.

ETA: that's pre-buffed by gems. Buffing via empowerment or magic items does allow you to eat more delicious rock-candy.

thejeff · #17 March 10th, 2011, 12:05 AM

Just to be precise, empowerment, magic items, or booster spells all allow you to use more gems.

I'm not sure about communions. They should, but I don't think I've ever confirmed it.
It would be nice if the AI was smart enough not to burn extra gems to reduce fatigue, when all the fatigue is going to the slaves, whom the extra gems don't help anyway. But it's not.

Squirrelloid · #18 March 16th, 2011, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thejeff

Just to be precise, empowerment, magic items, or booster spells all allow you to use more gems.

I'm not sure about communions. They should, but I don't think I've ever confirmed it.
It would be nice if the AI was smart enough not to burn extra gems to reduce fatigue, when all the fatigue is going to the slaves, whom the extra gems don't help anyway. But it's not.

Communion spells let you use more gems if they raise your actual caster level (ie, masters) - not just your effective level for fatigue soaking (ie, slaves).

This is pretty obvious if you consider the astral communion whose raison d'etre is to cast master enslave with a less than S8 (base) caster.